Why shouldn't I use Nord-Locks under ARP flywheel bolts?

[Alvin in AZ]

IMO, the guy doesn't know why the star washers are bad, and may not care either. LOL :)
I figure it's the fact that the star washer can dig into the flywheel and so loosen itself up.
Many times the chance of those failing than other washers is the reason he picked on them.

...but check out parts number 2 and number 3 of the instructions! :)

"he said over the phone it was ok, you owe me a new crank, flywheel and leg" -Robroy

Number 4 is very important for the same reasons the star washers are so bad.
There is a chance for "give" in the system and -it will give- and -it will be bad- when it does.
Even if you don't get hurt by flying pieces of flywheel it'll still be bad. ;)
Your fat and sassy wallet will be less fat and more humble.

Number 5... using 30wt motor oil is a given, that's standard operating procedure.

It's your engine do what you want.
If we are voting, I'm with "the Con". ;)

Alvin in AZ

[robroy]

I think, if you want it right you know what you need to do. And that's what I would do. I think the bolt without the washer is going to have greater strength. Which could be more than what you really need. But like I said, if you want it right......

Hey Convincor thanks for replying! I see your point.

The trouble is that I really don't know what I need to do if I want it right. Maybe using the factory bolts is the best choice.

It seems that the 330-2801 bolts have much smaller heads than the 200-2802s. The 330-2801 bolts are installed using a 1/2" socket (same as the pressure plate bolts), while the 200-2802s use a 3/4" socket. I forget what socket the factory bolts used by they were also pretty large.

IMO, the guy doesn't know why the star washers are bad, and may not care either. LOL

Yeah maybe not! I didn't detect a tremendous amount of concern in his tone of voice.

I figure it's the fact that the star washer can dig into the flywheel and so loosen itself up.
Many times the chance of those failing than other washers is the reason he picked on them.

...but check out parts number 2 and number 3 of the instructions!

"he said over the phone it was ok, you owe me a new crank, flywheel and leg" -Robroy

Number 4 is very important for the same reasons the star washers are so bad.
There is a chance for "give" in the system and -it will give- and -it will be bad- when it does.
Even if you don't get hurt by flying pieces of flywheel it'll still be bad.
Your fat and sassy wallet will be less fat and more humble.

Number 5... using 30wt motor oil is a given, that's standard operating procedure.

It's your engine do what you want.
If we are voting, I'm with "the Con".

Alvin in AZ

I see your point there!

Do you think there's any room for "give" with the Nord-Locks?

The Nord-Locks are grade eight so they themselves won't give, so it's hard for me to imagine how this could fail.

Plus, don't you think the Nord-Locks offer some value, since as far as I know, that's just the situation they're designed for (a high vibration environment where you can't have fasteners coming loose)?

Thanks for the great words of wisdom!
Robroy

[thebannister8]

in my opinion the double washers set up a scenario for sheering ( as does one washer in this application )..the strength of those bolts is in the material used and the spread of the wide face ( the head of the bolt ) .... for my comfort the possibility of flex would be too great with any washer....off topic a tad: i always use blue locktite and permatex non-hardening....they're after market designed to aid, not to be relied upon...i don't want anything permenant should i want to remove things.....

thought i'd add that although it seems the washers simply move the head of the bolt ( the washer being the new contact face ) , the problem is that the shaft of the bolt ( by the head ) is not completly threaded in...this increases the chance of flex

robroy..i know it's the tough road, but the flywheel is one big ol' fast moving heavy part at the center of power....

that's my opinion, others may differ

[Alvin in AZ]

robroy wrote:
> Do you think there's any room for "give" with the Nord-Locks?

Yes, I do and yes, there is. :)

>The Nord-Locks are grade eight so they themselves won't give,
>so it's hard for me to imagine how this could fail.

You can do it, just keep at it. ;)
Do like Einstein did, cartoon-ize it, simplify it, then as you can see it clearly, bring it back to reality.

>Plus, don't you think the Nord-Locks offer some value...

No, I don't. :/

>...that's just the situation they're designed for (a high vibration
>environment where you can't have fasteners coming loose)?
>Robroy[/quote]

I'm sure their sales people can show where they are the best thing since unsliced sour dough bread. ;)
I don't buy it, I remember using them, (took some doing but somehow knew I was familiar with them).
We used them on rail mounted hot box detector sensors and switch point "helpers" that consisted of
rollers mounted to the switch point and a spring plate mounted on the stock rail. Double nutting that
stuff after the Nord-Locked nuts fell off kept the stuff monted where it was intended to be mounted.

It's not all vibration the flywheel bolts are dealing with, and -especially- in your case, it's shear.

Washers only offer another place for trouble to creep into the system.

Except...
In certain situations the washers that are the type that fold, fold up against the nut or bolt and down
over the fixed part are one type that do more good than harm, and other situations where the star
washers have worked good too, in my experience. But those would have not fixed switch point bolt
problems, double nutting was the only cure. We used 1+1/8 Huck-Bolts too, on insulated-joints, not
on switch points. A Huck-nut "nut" doesn't un-screw itself since they aren't threads but rings instead. :)

Your Nord-Locked bolts on your flywheel is prob'ly going to be fine just like Freaky said. :)
A guy can't disagree with that. But we've gone past that, off into "what's best" territory. :)

It's your call, Robroy. :)

Me? I'd friggin either get the right length bolts or more prob'ly I'd carefully shorten those myself.
But then, I basically -really do hate- washers so I'm not impartial here. LOL :)

Alvin in AZ
ps- x2 what Bannister said. :)

[robroy]

Hey TheBannister8, thanks for your reply!

I see what you mean, especially about the washers making the bolts not threaded in all the way. In this particular case, the washers actually increase the length of the threaded area. That's because of the long shoulder these bolts have, and because the bolts stick out beyond the end of the threads without the washers installed.

Regarding the blue thread lock, I think that's a good suggestion too! You know, I think the "red" stuff actually comes in a few different varieties. The type I'm using is the "high strength" variety--there's also a "permanent" variety, which is much stronger. I've removed fasteners that had the "red" type that I've been using after they've cured and haven't had a problem. This said, I wouldn't use the "high strength" red type I've been using on small fasteners since it takes around 30-40 ft/lbs of torque to snap it free, and naturally that would break small fasteners.

It seems that ARP is a large enough company to supply me with two responses! I sent an e-mail and also called on the phone. The phone response is the one I already included in this thread.

The e-mail response came from a different gentleman. He's saying that they would recommend staying away from any type of lockwasher on the basis that lockwashers tend to break, and then the bolts come loose.

I seriously doubt that these Nord-Locks would break any sooner than the bolt itself.

When I consider all the input I've received on this topic, I'm leaning towards finding suitable bolts and re-doing it without the Nord-Locks now. My reason is simple. I know that without the Nord-Locks, it will work fine and I won't have any problems (at least problems caused by the way I put it together). This has been proved in thousands of performance engines with flywheels that don't have lockwashers. With Nord-Locks, there may or may not be problems. But there's a little doubt there.

I'll find some way to re-do it.

I'm hoping to find bolts that are exactly like the 200-2802s but a little shorter. The under head length of my factory bolts is 15/16". The closest thing I see in the ARP catalog is 350-2802. The under head length of that is 0.925 (while 15/16" is 0.9375), and it has a large head (3/4" socket size). The application for that is a 351W, but since these are "just bolts," that may not matter at all.

Do ya'll think being just a hair shorter (0.0125", or about 1/64") than the factory bolts will be a significant problem?

Thanks for the outstanding advice!
Robroy

[robroy]

Thanks for the reply Alvin! I've decided to find some bolts that fit better and give the assembly another whirl. I don't like to bury something questionable this deeply in the machine, and I could use the practice putting it all together again (no joke).

Thanks again,
Robroy

[thebannister8]

robroy...you're most welcome for the info...i should clarify that when i said not threaded in all the way...i was aware that on the bolts you have that the thread stops before it meets the head of the bolt ( i should have stated that, my fault )...what i was refering to is threaded or non-threaded that a part of the bolt shaft is out of the bolt hole and subject to flexing.....as far as 1/64 short.....wow...that's a judgement call....the large ( 3/4 ) face of the bolts is attractive....i suppose i'd size it up on a rough install first and see where the bolts end, but i guess that would be after the fact of purchasing them...i'm like Alvin in AZ....i'd probably cut them to length........i'd only make that call , or not, on MY motor having stared at it for awhile though....i'm sure the factory used the bolts they chose for a good reason, i'd guess a vast majority of rebuilds have stock ones...i'd say stock ones are just fine....

[robroy]

Hey TheBannister8! Thanks for replying.

I see what you're getting at regarding the increased shearing potential with the heads a little further away from the flywheel. I can imagine a piece of plywood standing on end, and how much easier it would be to bend it by pushing on its center than on the edge! I'm not sure if this is an accurate comparison or not.

It's plausible that the 1/64" number I came up with is bogus, since I measured the factory bolt with a ruler to arrive at a 15/16" length. Since it's hard for me to imagine sufficient variety in Ford flywheel bolts to account for 1/64", perhaps those 351W bolts are identical to the old FE bolts.

I think I'll order the new bolts instead of trying to cut the old ones. I don't have a very good way to cut them without making a mess of it, and the weight of each bolt would come out a little different. And if I paid a machine shop to cut them they'd probably charge me more than the cost of the new bolts!

By the way, I just got another reply from ARP. In this reply I read that the washers that cause problems are the type with the split in them (the most common lockwasher type), because they tend to break directly opposite of the split, leaving two pieces under the head of the bolt. The gentleman added that he doesn't think the washers I used will cause any problems.

But I think the point remains the same: he is not SURE they won't cause problems, since flywheels generally aren't held on that way.

I mailed ARP back to make sure they agree that 350-2802 bolts would be a good replacement for my application.

Regarding the factory bolts, I suppose you're right that they're fine. I was originally planning on re-using them. But when I bought my new flywheel from Summit, I noticed the ARP bolts in their "recommended parts" window. And after holding the ARP bolts in my hand and looking at them closely, then comparing them to the tired factory bolts, you can see that the ARP bolts are real works of art. And they're probably far stronger, based at least upon ARP's advertising. And they have those large heads!

Thanks again for the great advice folks.

Robroy

[robroy]

I heard back from ARP that the 350-2802 bolts should be a great match for the 15/16" long factory bolts! I'll post more photos of the new bolts as I put it all back together this Saturday.

Thanks very much,
Robroy

[robroy]

Great news! The 350-2802 bolts arrived and they're visually identical in length to the factory bolts!

The only differences are the nice big heads (naturally) and a slightly longer sleeve before the threads start, which is not an issue since that section is inside the hole in the flywheel anyways.

At least just from looking at them, they appear to be the perfect replacement for the FE flywheel bolts.

Thanks!
Robroy

[thebannister8]

in no time

[Alvin in AZ]

in no time

YeeeHaaaw!

Alvin in AZ

[robroy]

Hey Thebannister8 and Alvin,

I wish it were true that I'd have it on the road soon, but my time estimates always turn out laughably inadequate! At least I can drive it today in my imagination.

By the way, when I was at the drive shaft shop yesterday I told the guy there about the flywheel bolts, and he said that in his opinion, I should definitely get those washers out of there. He said that even big rig engines never use lockwashers under those bolts, because the washers are notorious for breaking! This seems to be a widely agreed upon guideline.

Thanks!
Robroy

[Alvin in AZ]

Been looking for this smiley, at first I had thought I saw it here...
http://www.fordtruckfanatics.com/forum/ ... eelout.gif
... for some reason it came to mind because of Robroy's hotrod bump. :)

Alvin in AZ

[convincor]

Been looking for this smiley, at first I had thought I saw it here...
http://www.fordtruckfanatics.com/forum/ ... eelout.gif
... for some reason it came to mind because of Robroy's hotrod bump.

Alvin in AZ

Add at the end to get it to show.