The official 6bt conversion thread

[sgs]

I'm located in central Wisconsin. I'm pretty new to the forum. I didn't notice a classified but I guess I'll have to look closer, and yes it is a good deal!
sgs

[68Mercury250Ranger]

Wow thats a big step back from the ultra quiet 6.0 to a 4bt. i'm not surprized you didn't like the noise!
sounds like a good deal, only problem with the rotary pump is the ULSD take the seals out way too early.

what are you putting in the F350? how did the power/torque feel compared to the 6.0?
More torque/less rpms?

You could always make up some noise"blankets" for the little bugger. Isuzu does that of many of their medium range diesels. Just an idea. you have gone to all the conversion work already

I read your post too fast and thought you had put the 4bt inplace of the 6.0 diesel.
I just went through a lot of headaches with a 6.0 at work so it was still an open wound

[sgs]

There is no comparison between a 6.0 and a 4BT. I knew that when I started the project. The 6.0 is new technology and the 4BT is old school. They each have their advantages and disadvantages. I wasn't planning on replacing my 06 F350 when I built this. It was and still is a fun experiment, just didn't turn out to be what I wanted. We did do some additional insulation.
Maybe I'm just getting noise sensitive in my old age.

The 4BT has excellent torque. We dyno'd it at 400lbs. The example I gave of pulling the 11/2 mile grade with the heavy load was done in overdrive. Once the rpm's drop into the 4BT's maximum torque range you can really feel the torque take over. The holding power is exceptional. Many people turn their horsepower up. we turned ours a little but kept the stock injectors, pump, and turbo, we were looking for torque and fuel economy. I belive that we obtained our objectives here. Driving it without a heavy load and especialy with out the big stock trailer attached is pure pleasure. Don't let anyone kid you. It has plenty of power.

Sorry to hear about your 6.0 problems. I'm very happy with mine. i have 87,000 miles on it now, almost all pulling very heavy loads, no problems.

When I pull the 4BT I will probably put a FE back in. The rest of the truck was a ground up resto and is pristine. This is just a little change in the plan.

[averagef250]

I agree with stock interior the cummins is very obnoxious in an old Ford. With a few hundred bucks in sound proofing it's pretty comfortable though.

I have a hard time accepting it when anyone says there's a problem with a Bosch VE pump, like it won't handle ULSD. The VE is not very technologically advanced, the things have been around since the 1930's, but it is incredibly simple and tough. They are still made on current emissions exempt 2009 production Cummins engines. There is one shaft seal in a bosch VE. That's it, just one. EVERY single bosch IP rubber component made since 1998 has been made to be entirely ULSD and B100 compatible and the seals made before that will handle those fuels for a decade or more before there are issues. The Bosch VE rebuild kit is $32 from any Bosch distributor and comes with every part needed to rebuild your VE with basic tools on a clean workbench. If you can rebuild a Motorcraft 2150 you can overhaul a VE pump. There is nothing to them, any pump shop that tells you they need to be bench flowed and calibrated is lying out their a$$. The VE can also put out just as much fuel as a big bore P7100 for a lot less money thanks to our VW diesel friends coming up with aftermarket distributors. The downside to the VE is they will not not handle high fuel loads and high RPM. RPM's wear out and break VE's, not high fuel rates.

The P7100 is more tunable than a VE and will handle much higher RPM's since they are oil lubed. That said, I've seen far more P7100 failures than VE failures. P7100 governor assemblies are far more complex and wear prone than VE's are and P7100 DV's routinely break.

SGS, what turbo did you have on your 4BT? If you made that power with the stock 16CM/50MM H1C that's amazing!

[sgs]

Average 250,
Sounds like you are a real Cummins man. I have worked in a Mack dealership for about 35 years. I don't know the part number on the turbo. I don't have the CPL numbers handy. The turbo was the stock one that came with the engine. The rated horsepower was around 105. At the risk of repeating myself, The head was mildly ported, manifolds were port matched, The cam was custom ground but only the rate of lift was increased, not the amount of lift or duration. It idles smooth. The injectors are stock. We added a large frontal cooler from my 6.0. It has a cold air intake box with a K&N filter. The fuel plate in the pump was turned up while on the dyno and we added a 3,000RPM kit to the pump. It does not smoke when the boost is over 7lbs. We did remove the fan drive. I'm running an electric fan that doesn't go with the sale of the engine. That's it. It runs good.

[averagef250]

I don't know about "Cummins man", but I have tinkered with a number of the little Cummins motors in pickups in the last few years. Haven't been able to melt one down yet.

[nevrenufhp]

Why dont we have a Ford 6.6 diesel swap, or an International DT360 swap thread? I'm sure someone wants to put something in that's a little unique.

[sgs]

Maybe just a diesel swap in general. I,m new here but 4B and 6's seem to be discussed here. Did you notice that there are more pages to this thread than any of the other engine threads? I had my heart set on a John Deere 4cyl swap if I pulled the 4BT. I have a freind who sells John Deere stationary engines. He says Deere has a 180 HP 4Cyl that is fully electronic, fully balanced,quiet, and best in class fuel economy. He thought he could get one slightly used for about $8,000. That seems to be the problem at this point.

sgs

[averagef250]

Maybe just a diesel swap in general. I,m new here but 4B and 6's seem to be discussed here. Did you notice that there are more pages to this thread than any of the other engine threads? I had my heart set on a John Deere 4cyl swap if I pulled the 4BT. I have a freind who sells John Deere stationary engines. He says Deere has a 180 HP 4Cyl that is fully electronic, fully balanced,quiet, and best in class fuel economy. He thought he could get one slightly used for about $8,000. That seems to be the problem at this point.

sgs

I've seen modern mechanical Yanmars, Kubuta's and JD's used in smaller trucks. They do good, not anything to write home about and parts/tech support is a real pain.

Cummins B series engines are balanced from the factory. I've weighed out the parts myself and had cranks checked dynamically. The pistons/pins are usually within a gram, the rods are within 20 on the big ends.

I was under the impression the quitest 4 banger diesel on the road engine made today is the 4.5 4BT Commonrail. All Cummins B engines made since 2003 except dodge and some industrial are rear geartrain. The rear gear and HPCR drops engine DB's by a landslide. In South America Ford superduty trucks don't use Navistar engines, they use Cummins 4BT's. If you could buy a 2009 Brazillian F-350 it comes with a 250HP, 550 lb/ft 4.5L HPCR 4BTA and a ZF 5 speed.

There was a 2005 HPCR 3.9 4BT and Allison 1000 on ebay last week with very low miles for $3000.

Also, if you have a a plain old 3.9 VE 4 BT you can switch it over to a HPCR 16V engine with all brand new parts from Cummins including the wiring, ECM and fuel system for about $4000 in parts. The head and ECM/wiring are about $2500, the rest of the parts can easily be scavanged from a 2003-2006 commonrail dodge.

[averagef250]

Funny I noticed fuel leaks on my 1.6D VW within a month of the new ULSD fuel coming out here. Every 1.6D or 1.6TD I have looked at in the last 2 years has ahad a leaking throttle shaft or other seal in the inj pump.

The VE throttle shaft is sealed with a 2 cent O-ring that takes 5 minutes to change out. I've only seen VE throttle shafts leak when the bushing wears out.

[sgs]

This is old news but new to me, duh! Cummins started building a 4.5 liter version of the 3.9 liter 4BT in 2005. It is internally balanced, has common rail injection, 170HP, quiet and vibration free. So the big question is; has anyone had any experience with this engine? Where do you look for a used one? I still have the 4BT in my 73 F250 which I don't like because of noise and vibration. I'm thinking that this engine should cure those problems and be just about a direct bolt in. Comments?

sgs

[68Mercury250Ranger]

Probably easy to top up the power a little too
All the pieces would swap over I bet, hoses different sizes for the increased horsepower.

Haven't sold your old motor yet? I didn't think it would last long

[sgs]

I'll be doing some research from this end. I called our local Cummins distributor yesterday to see if this engine has made it into their rebuilt program yet. he is checking and also checking to see if my 4BT would be an acceptible core and what the $$$ would be for the trade.

This swap if the $$$ aren't too prohibitive would probably be my best solution because, and I'm still guessing, most everything should fit, and I end up with what I wanted in the beginning, a clasic truck that will pull my horse trailer and get in the mid twenties for fuel mileage bobtailing and 16 or so while pulling.

I haven't sold the engine package. If someone is interested I would still consider it. I have some other options for repowering the 73. I am building a stroked 445 FE and am planning on replacing the stock 360 in my 72, however I could put the stroker in the 73 and leave the 72 as is. I have also toyed with the idea of building a stroked 300 6cyl. The Clifford people gave me a recipe for a 350 CI 6cyl and I think that would be a great pulling engine. Ether of the 2 options would probably cost less than a Cummins 4.5 but I will wait to see what Cummins says and decide on a course then.

sgs

[sgs]

For what it's worth; today Cummins told me that no OEM has ever used the 4.5 for automotive applications. The 4.5 is used in log skiders, processors and other off road industrial type equipment. so that doesn't mean you can't find a used one I will just have to look in different places. They won't be in any UPS vans.

They haven't gotten back to me with a price for a rebuilt.

sgs

[averagef250]

I'm using a 2006 commonrail 4.5 in my 70 F-250. All Cummins engines except the dodge ones and limited offroad apps went to rear geartrain and HPCR in 2003.

The CR 4.5 and 3.9 4BT share virtually nothing. Some of the accesory mounts are the same, the block bore spacing is the same, but everything else is different.

The rear geartrain engines are only available in SAE and proprietary patterns and the engine itself is about 4" longer than front gear and the rear geartrain fights the firewall/steering/clutch linkage. My 4.5 is from a forklift. It's rated for 78HP at 1900 RPM N/A.

I'm converting my 4.5 to front geartrain and running a mechanical pump. I don't care about noise, can't even hear the engine with good cab insulation. I just want more off-idle torque than the 3.9 has for getting heavy loads moving without going to all the extra weight and size of the six.