390 on Dyno (video)

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Re: 390 on Dyno (video)

Postby hotrodfeguy on Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:19 am

I must have missed that.
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1972 F250 4X4 390 4SPD 4.10 CS HEADERS/3" DUAL/PERF-CAM/600 HOLLEY
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Re: 390 on Dyno (video)

Postby DuckRyder on Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:50 am

I thought it went without saying, but perhaps not...

But obviously you are going to need to check for a multitude of things with this cam, the springs must be appropriate, the heads ported and set up to accommodate the lift, PISTON to VALVE CLEARANCE checked...

You will have to break it in with only the OUTER spring, then reinstall the inner spring and dampener.

I will say, that while I think this cam is a much better choice, without a lot of professional work the heads probably can't use most of the lift over .500, so it might be easier on the valve train to chose a cam with somewhat less lift and the same or slightly longer .050 duration.

hotrodFEguy, you may be right, I could easily be confused with another build...

[foot note: this is why it is so important to give us complete details, the entire drive train is a system and you cannot view the engine (or transmission, or rear end) in a vacuum]

Better plan on changing the rear end gear too...  :wink:
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Re: 390 on Dyno (video)

Postby DuckRyder on Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:56 am

OH, and when you get the heads off, clean the top of a piston and give us the numbers (and perhaps a picture) maybe we can figure out what it is and where your compression is at.
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Re: 390 on Dyno (video)

Postby Dragon on Fri Jan 29, 2010 2:32 pm

You are right Mr, DuckRyder The hassles of such a high lift cam makes this and all race prep labor problem for a street motor. There are many cams on many other companies' web sites that run the same power range and make the same claims with less than .530 lift.

I have turned 2 different FEs into the low 9s and mid 8s with less the .600 lift.
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Re: 390 on Dyno (video)

Postby hotrodfeguy on Fri Jan 29, 2010 4:00 pm

Lets not get too hasty here. Did the machinest cut the guides for positive seals? Cause thats all I did with my heads. When they cut down the guide it lowers the top edge of the seal hight. Thats the place it hits. If so he may just get by with just a spring change. I cheated there too used springs good for .580 lift. Just saying he may be able to do this without pulling the engine aprt again.

I missed the stall convert he had. Thought he was still with factory convert there. His 2K convert should help on gearing to a point.
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Re: 390 on Dyno (video)

Postby Dragon on Fri Jan 29, 2010 4:17 pm

He has a higher stall speed.
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Re: 390 on Dyno (video)

Postby sport71 on Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:27 am

I got the 2500 converter,I didn't compare it to the original c6 one like you did hotrodfeguy.

hotrodfeguy wrote:Did the machinest cut the guides for positive seals? Cause thats all I did with my heads. When they cut down the guide it lowers the top edge of the seal hight. Thats the place it hits. If so he may just get by with just a spring change. I cheated there too used springs good for .580 lift. Just saying he may be able to do this without pulling the engine aprt again.


BobbyFord wrote:I hope the guides were cut to accomodate .600 lift.


The guides are under the springs, right? Well that's what I'm thinking I want to understand, and get this right. Can you cut the guides and shim the springs if needed?

DuckRyder wrote:OH, and when you get the heads off, clean the top of a piston and give us the numbers (and perhaps a picture) maybe we can figure out what it is and where your compression is at.


I sure will, and I would like to get that cam in. It might take some more time than I hope for, but it's what I want.

DuckRyder wrote:But obviously you are going to need to check for a multitude of things with this cam, the springs must be appropriate, the heads ported and set up to accommodate the lift, PISTON to VALVE CLEARANCE checked...


I just sent a question to Tuff Dawg Engines (enginebuilders1) on ebay, that's where I got the heads. I asked if the springs and valves would work for this cam..
It might sound dumb that I want more out of my motor when it's running fine, or does it?

Dragon wrote:I have turned 2 different FEs into the low 9s and mid 8s with less the .600 lift.


I have to give it to you Dragon, that's what I'm looking for.
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Re: 390 on Dyno (video)

Postby BobbyFord on Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:44 am

The guide is what the valve glides in. They have to be cut down in high lift situations so that there is clearance with regard to the spring retainer. Guides are also machined down (narrower) to accept the newer style seals, eliminating the old umbrella style seals. My heads have Teflon valve seals.
Shims are used to keep the installed spring heights consistent. Shims do not have anything to do with cutting the guides.
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Re: 390 on Dyno (video)

Postby Dragon on Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:52 am

Crower  PN 16332  RPM Power Range: 3000 to 7000 / Redline: 7500. when I built those cars this was it. Kit 84316 Solid. 7500 plus rpm lifters.

Of course dual 950 3 barrels with EDC heads and 427 valves helped too.

The tops of the guides get cut down rubber seals are better for racers because the engines get torn down more often rubber guide seals don't cause guide to spring retainer problems until higher lifts. Teflon seals stick up farther so the guides need cut down more. When the lift gets real radical say .700 then the guides don't last due to rocking of the valve stem and not enough guide length.


This cam with Edelbrock Torker, 780 Holley, Accel Dual point dizzy, True Roller double roller forged gears, EDC heads with 427 valves RUG Top loader, Zoom 11-1/2 clutch, Zoom 3.89 gears made two trucks do 140 mph and they could outrun California highway patrols on acceleration and almost on top end. But they never got caught
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Re: 390 on Dyno (video)

Postby sport71 on Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:03 am

BobbyFord wrote:The guide is what the valve glides in. They have to be cut down in high lift situations so that there is clearance with regard to the spring retainer. Guides are also machined down (narrower) to accept the newer style seals, eliminating the old umbrella style seals. My heads have Teflon valve seals.
Shims are used to keep the installed spring heights consistent. Shims do not have anything to do with cutting the guides.


Got it. It's the little things that make all the differance, man I sure am glad that you guys are helping me with the cautions that might cause big problems.

Thanks BobbyFord.
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Re: 390 on Dyno (video)

Postby sport71 on Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:46 am

hotrodfeguy wrote:Lets not get too hasty here. Did the machinest cut the guides for positive seals? Cause thats all I did with my heads. When they cut down the guide it lowers the top edge of the seal hight. Thats the place it hits. If so he may just get by with just a spring change. I cheated there too used springs good for .580 lift. Just saying he may be able to do this without pulling the engine aprt again.

I missed the stall convert he had. Thought he was still with factory convert there. His 2K convert should help on gearing to a point.


I will have to see what pistons I have first any ways, hotrodfeguy
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Re: 390 on Dyno (video)

Postby DuckRyder on Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:12 am

sport71 wrote:I will have to see what pistons I have first any ways


I agree, if they are stock replacements you won't gain anything and it will just get "soft" overall.

I sort or *suspect* you are going to have piston to valve problems at .600 if you have oversize valves and pistons to get reasonable compression.

Once we know the compression, you might be able to deal with it by getting the dynamic compression up via lobe separation. A few degrees on the intake opening can make an appreciable difference.
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Re: 390 on Dyno (video)

Postby Dragon on Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:06 pm

:yt:

I had a 13 to 1 internal balance 428 not built Fords way.  And at .615 lift the 2.13 intakes hit the walls of a 4.13 bore. A real spooky shock went through me when I pulled the heads and found that dent in the cylinder wall from the top of the bore down almost 1/16th of an inch in every cylinder.  1/16 is .0625 so subtract that from the cam lift of .615 and you get the maximum lift for 427 intake valves in a non 427 bore of .553.  If the engine had 2.09 intakes it would have never hit and the next place that I might have had problems was on the pistons to valve clearances but I spent a fortune on my Keith Black pistons for that engine and I had good clearances. Luckily the top ring was below the grove so I sanded them smooth and left it that way.

Stock pistons and .600 lift will have eyebrow strikes. They are not cut out enough.
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Re: 390 on Dyno (video)

Postby sport71 on Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:30 pm

I sent the builder this message:
Dear enginebuilder1,

I'm sorry to bother you, but I bought some great FE C8AE-H heads - 2.09/1.65 from you, and the thing is I'm going with a LUNATI 30507 cam w/ Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .563/.600. Will they work for this heads?
Thanks..

The builder answered me:
Dear Ruben
               The heads are set up to handle a max lift of .600" So you are are maxing the springs out.

                                                                                              Thanks Darl

If I need special pistons could you guys let me know which ones I will need? As far as I know the heads are a go by the seller..
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Re: 390 on Dyno (video)

Postby DuckRyder on Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:07 pm

I'd be a little concerned to "max out" the springs, you are playing with fire.

If you want to run that cam my advice is to use the springs and retainers Lunati recommends. Either you check or have EVERYTHING checked. Every engine tolerance stacks up a bit different, YOU'VE got to check it on your engine. It's a serious cam and its going to take some serious checking to make sure it all goes well. I also cannot stress enough how important it is that you follow Lunati's break in directions in every minute detail.

Speed Pro/Sealed Power pistons have eyebrows for stock sized valves, larger valves may hit because the eyebrow isn't large enough. Your options are to have the eyebrows enlarged (there are cutters for that purpose) or spec a set of custom pistons from someone like Diamond or Ross. Either will obviously affect the balance.

My cam has something like .582 exhaust lift and L2291F's, I don't recall how much clearance I had but it was not much (I'm pretty sure .600 would be a no go). Cam timing comes into play too due to the pistons position at maximum lift, again a few degrees can make a big difference.
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