What's this loud tapping sound from my new engine?

[DuckRyder]

Perhaps some of the other guys will comment... here is my opinion:

I would replace that pump, they aren't that expensive it is a Melling High Volume. The spots that worry me are to top of the gear as well as the edges of it (4318, 4319, 4321) and the rotor and housing (4325, 4330).

I would back flush the pickup with brake cleaner and compressed air if available.

I would dissect the filter to see if there was any indication that it was compromised.

The high volume pump puts a good deal of stress on the oil pump drive, particularly in cold weather. The factory ones (which is what that looks like) have been known to twist in half. The ARP is an increased diameter in the center...

[fordman]

definetly get a new pump. that means the whole engine will possibly have metal filing in it. unless the filter caught it all.

[robroy]

Hey Robert, thanks for your great assessment!

I would replace that pump, they aren't that expensive it is a Melling High Volume. The spots that worry me are to top of the gear as well as the edges of it (4318, 4319, 4321) and the rotor and housing (4325, 4330).

Easily done! I'd be curious to dissect a brand new pump and compare the surfaces. The new one's $47, which isn't too much, considering that it's a pain to access later on.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MEL-M57HV/

I would back flush the pickup with brake cleaner and compressed air if available.

That should be pretty easy to do. I've got plenty of compressed air and brake cleaner, and the pickup isn't very long.

I would dissect the filter to see if there was any indication that it was compromised.

That sounds interesting! I've never pulled one apart before.

The high volume pump puts a good deal of stress on the oil pump drive, particularly in cold weather. The factory ones (which is what that looks like) have been known to twist in half. The ARP is an increased diameter in the center...

I see! The ARP one it is then.


http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ARP-154-7902/

Robert, I really appreciate you taking the time to wade through all my photos and render your expert advice!
Robroy

[robroy]

Hey Fordman thanks for replying!

definetly get a new pump.

Okay, this I will do for certain!

that means the whole engine will possibly have metal filing in it. unless the filter caught it all.

Indeed. Yet I don't know of anything very easy to do about it, other than change the oil often and hope for the best. Perhaps the dissection of the oil filter will be revealing.

Thanks Fordman!!!
Robroy

[fordman]

without making more metal flakes by cutting the housing off i am unsure how to cut open the filter either. i was thinking sawzall at first. but that will make more metal flakes. so sort of can opener large enough for a oil filter.
a large pipe cutter maybe?

[robroy]

Hey Fordman I think you're right! I'll have to be careful with that.

I don't have a pipe cutter but maybe I can bring my filter in to the hardware store and use one of theirs. I can wipe it off on my shirt when I'm done to get most of the oil off--they won't mind! Just kidding of course.

I could also punch through the metal can with a chisel. That would get very messy but might not generate any metal specks.

Robroy

[DuckRyder]

The oil filter study used to have some information on cutting them apart. Mostly you want to look and see if the trash is confined to one side of the filter media.

Going past this is going to get into the engine build proper, which is why I suggest calling the builder, they might ask you to pull a bearing cap depending on what you find.

My gut feeling is that you should be fine though.

Unless Melling has gotten really sloppy, a new pump will look much better than that...

[robroy]

The oil filter study used to have some information on cutting them apart. Mostly you want to look and see if the trash is confined to one side of the filter media.

Got it, thanks! I'll open it up as carefully as I can and check it out.

Going past this is going to get into the engine build proper, which is why I suggest calling the builder, they might ask you to pull a bearing cap depending on what you find.

I see! I'll send Steve at Proformance Unlimited some photos and give him a call.

My gut feeling is that you should be fine though.

Hey I like that!!!

Unless Melling has gotten really sloppy, a new pump will look much better than that...

Excellent! I'll take the cover off of the new one and do a comparison.

Thanks very much for the truly outstanding help!
Robroy

[BobbyFord]

Also, sealant is not necessary on the pump-to-engine surfaces. I use a thin layer of Gaskacinch to glue the gasket to the pump or to the block and then carefully trim the gasket from the pump outlet hole with a razor blade. The gasket always seems to not fit well and cover part of the hole, just my opinion.

[Ranchero50]

Wow, each scuff mark in that pump is a chunk of metal that you hope the filter will catch. I didn't notice this expanded on, but inside the filter is a rubber or cardboard (in Fram's) flap that pushes open when the filter pressure is too high from thick cold oil or other things. I'm actually curious to know how high myself since I usually run 60+psi in my engines. If the filter doesn't catch those metal bits they will end up embedded in you brearings and scratch / wear the journals down. It can be a really vicous cycle.

A simple check of if the filter did it's job at this point would be to pull the valve covers off and look around the oil puddles for metal specks.

Jamie

[DuckRyder]

A simple check of if the filter did it's job at this point would be to pull the valve covers off and look around the oil puddles for metal specks.

That is a EXCELLENT idea!

[70_F100]

I've been giving this a LOT of thought.

SIMPLE is not always BETTER!!

Robroy, you've got a ton of money, a ton of time, and a lot of blood, sweat and tears invested, probably along with a lot of busted knuckles and headaches. You've got a high performance engine that you'll undoubtedly be pushing hard from time to time. You want this engine to give you a long service life.

NO WAY would I put this engine back together and crank it without checking the rod and main bearings. Checking the filter is good. Checking under the valve covers is good. That's still not good enough, in my opinion. Oil was slung throughout the engine while it ran, and those metal particles were in suspension with that oil. Without performing an oil analysis on the oil that is puddled up in the heads, there's absolutely no way to know exactly what the metal content is.

Pull the rods and mains and check them. Pull the valve covers and intake. Wash down the inside of the entire engine. Install the old oil pump (after cleaning, of course), submerge the pickup in a bucket of clean kerosene or mineral spirits (improvise if you have to on the pickup tube) and with the main and rod caps off, run the oil pump with a drill to flush the oil passages. (Leave at least two of the main caps on, flush, put two other caps on, remove the two you left on, then flush again). Blow it all down with compressed air, then rinse the inside with brake cleaner, starting on the top side, then go underneath and spray it into every nook and cranny you can get it into. Blow it down again with compressed air. When you reassemble, make sure to prime the entire engine by running the oil pump with a drill, then spin it over with the plugs removed to allow all surfaces to lubricate before starting.

YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE ALL OF THE METAL WENT, NOR HOW MUCH OF IT IS LEFT INSIDE THE ENGINE!!!!

If you're concerned about the torque method used for the main and rod bolts, call the guys who built your engine. I'm sure they would give you that information without hesitation.

If you don't clean and check it thoroughly, you're risking everything you've got invested, and the relatively short time you'll spend doing this is CHEAP insurance for the long term.

The question you have to ask yourself is, "Do I want to take a chance???"

[Ranchero50]

70, baby steps man, baby steps. Try not to shock the patient with too much bad news at once.

It's actually all very good advice and should be followed to the letter. It's a sad day for #50. The valve cover suggestion was just the first step.

The other side of the coin is how much trash is too much? How many miles of wear are on the engine right now from the trash in the oil or even left over machining trash? It's hard to say. It's hard to prejudge Robroy's (or Robroy's significant other's) patience to keep slogging away at this thing. Does he pull the motor and ship it back to NJ and deal with the builder to (hopefully) clean it out correctly and replace the bearings or does he slog through doing it himself? Is it worth the fight to get the builder to accept some responsibility if he may begrudge the repair work (and not do a very good job). Lots of questions to ponder.

Personally I'd pull the covers, give it a good looksee, using white paper towels to soak up some oil and hold it under a light. Look for metal, then judge (from experience) whether it's worth pulling the motor back apart to flush it out. If the top end has visible metal contamination they it's guarenteed that the bottom end is trashed out too. If I see medium metal flakes in the top end the motor's coming out, getting pulled down, cleaned and inspected, then reassembled. If it's fine metal flake it's getting flushed and considered broken in. How much of this is Robroy going to do himself or farm out locally?

Finally how much money do you drop into a $2500 F250?

Jamie

[fordman]

the builder didnt put the tray in the engine. so why would they have to pay to clean the engine out?

[70_F100]

Finally how much money do you drop into a $2500 F250?
Jamie

Jamie:

I totally agree with everything you said.

At what point do you just throw up your hands and say, "I surrender!!!"

As for how much money to put into the truck, I asked Robroy essentially the same question once.

He basically said that his intention was to build the truck to be as reliable as a brand new one, and that even though he may have as much money in it as a new one when finished, and he would have the satisfaction of knowing that he did it. He also said that he would have a truck that he, himself, can work on. Not a direct quote, by any means, but my best recollection of the conversation, paraphrased.

Based on the amount of time, money and effort that he's put into it so far, along with the conversations we've had, I have tried, through my last post, to convey to him the potential seriousness of the situation. I didn't try to sugar-coat it, because I think Robroy appreciates in-depth information. Just look at the detail he puts into his posts!!!

With that being said, I personally would pull the engine and disassemble it totally, even down to breaking down the heads to clean the valve guides. Overkill? Maybe. Peace of mind? Undoubtedly. There are enough other things that can go wrong without gambling on something that you already know is a potential problem. Where is a nice-sized piece of that ground-up metal hibernating inside the engine, just waiting to be awakened???

Is the builder going to help? VERY doubtful. Is there a chance that Milodon would provide a little relief? Probably not, but it may be worth asking them, especially if there was no instruction sheet or disclaimer included with the tray.

Your points are well-made and well-taken, and I think what you said complements my post.

Thinking back to Robroy's previous posts, the one saving grace is that he had enough foresight to quiet down the exhaust before firing the engine. Can you imagine what the condition of his engine would be now, if he had run it with open headers so that the noise he so fortunately heard was not overshadowed by the sound of open exhaust???