Could I ask for advice on the March multi-groove pulley kit?

[Ranchero50]

Robroy, looks good, take your time and get the belt to run as true as possible. I suspect the 1/8" tolerance is just to keep the phone call complaints to a minimum. Being out of alignment will cause the belt to rub on the ribs, the friction will eventually where through the anodizing and you'll also get black belt dust all over the front of that pretty engine. Plus friction eats power

Be sure to compare both the alternator and water pump pulley's to the crank. I've had to move the water pump flange before to get them to line up.

Also try to check for angular misalignment between the alternator - waterpump and alternator - crank. You would put a straight edge across each pulley face and compare them where they overlap. As long as they are parallel you are good, if they cross you'll need to tweak the alternator bracket for better alignment. Hard to do with a cone pulley though...

Jamie

[robroy]

Good afternoon Bobby and Jamie, thanks for your superb replies!

Billet Specialties are very expensive for a complete set up.

I'll bet they are! The complete setup (with complete accessories) is really a bunch of hardware, and I'm sure the Billet Specialties kit's at least as nice as the March kit, in terms of parts quality.

Robroy, looks good, take your time and get the belt to run as true as possible.

Thanks Jamie! I'll take my time here. I suspect that after today's work, I might have it in good shape (photos to come at the end of this reply).

I suspect the 1/8" tolerance is just to keep the phone call complaints to a minimum.

I see! That makes sense.

Being out of alignment will cause the belt to rub on the ribs, the friction will eventually where through the anodizing and you'll also get black belt dust all over the front of that pretty engine. Plus friction eats power

Great points. And I'm sure this alignment is very difficult to do once the truck's all put together, with the front clip complete, compared to the open-access setup I have today.

Be sure to compare both the alternator and water pump pulley's to the crank.

Okay!

I've had to move the water pump flange before to get them to line up.

Gosh, does that mean re-machining the flange on the face of the water pump (that the bracket bolts to)? I sure hope I don't have to do that, since it would make it hard to replace the water pump in the future. That said, I suppose this Edelbrock aluminum pump is rebuildable.

Also try to check for angular misalignment between the alternator - waterpump and alternator - crank. You would put a straight edge across each pulley face and compare them where they overlap. As long as they are parallel you are good, if they cross you'll need to tweak the alternator bracket for better alignment. Hard to do with a cone pulley though...

That's a good suggestion--thanks. And you're right about the cone pulleys! Each of these pulleys seems to have a forward area that's shaped differently from the others, so it doesn't seem like there are any flat surfaces to do good comparisons between.

I ran a razor over the balancer scratches and they didn't seem very bad at all--I couldn't even really feel them. So I used a little bit of emery cloth over the scratch areas to be sure they were totally concave.



I used a razor on the mass-produced spacer given to me by Tom Lucas to scrape off any tiny high spots, making its surfaces as uniform as possible.



Then I placed the spacer on the crankshaft pilot, slid the pulley on, and fastened it down!




This three photos were the best I could get to illustrate the lack of complete engagement on the pilot. It seems like there's still enough engagement--by far--to be OK like this.




Here's how the Tom Lucas spacer looks sitting behind the pulley.



I wish I would have tried harder to keep the measuring tape straight for this photo! You can see how things line up, more or less. It looks like as anticipated, the spacer given to me by Tom Lucas pushed the crankshaft pulley out about 1/16".



And here's the installed belt. If you'd like to help me eyeball the alignment, you'll probably want to click on this one to see the large, high definition edition. I think it looks basically perfect now, but I don't have an experienced eye!



Here's a shot taken to illustrate the alignment between the water pump and alternator pulleys. I think it looks OK--do you?



And this photo (taken from under the setup, laying on my back on the garage floor), shows the alignment between the crankshaft and alternator pulleys. I think it's OK, although it's definitely harder to tell with this one, since it's not easy to get in a perfect position for a straight-on view.



So what do y'all think of the alignment now? It looks good enough to satisfy me, but I respect y'alls experience and am still open to more fiddling around.

Here's another topic. How tight would you recommend making this multi-groove belt? These photos show how tight it is now.

On the left it's sitting naturally, and I'm pushing down on it with 67% of my possible force with my thumb on the right. If it's possible to tell from these photos, does it look too loose or too tight?



Bobby and Jamie, thanks for your truly excellent replies!
Robroy

[Redcap]

Looks good to me. And would run it a a little tighter than that.

[robroy]

Good afternoon Aaron, thanks for replying!

Looks good to me.

Excellent, thanks for checking it out!

And would run it a a little tighter than that.

Okay, I'll remember that when the next time I tighten it down--thanks!

Just when I thought this adventure had been "licked," I became aware of another minor problem.

I went to torque down the long bolt that runs through the bottom side of the alternator. I remembered hearing from March that all the 3/8" bolts should be torqued to 25 ft/lbs, and this was a 7/16" bolt, so after getting to 25 ft/lbs, I figured I'd take it to 30-35 ft/lbs. And somewhere at around 30 ft/lbs, I heard and felt a SNAP!!!

At that instant I remembered that the bolt actually never screwed in very far in to the engine, because it wasn't quite long enough. It went in maybe three full turns, but no more. And I'd just tried to distribute ~30 ft/lbs across two or three threads!

I pulled the long bolt out and removed the alternator, expecting somewhat to see the end of the bolt broken off in the engine, but the bolt came out whole! Then I got to looking at it more closely, and its final two or three threads were full of steel. I peeled the steel out of the threads--here's one of the pieces:



Here's the tip of the bolt, which actually held up a lot better than the threads in the engine did--perhaps that's normal?



Here's the whole bolt. The yellow line indicates about how many threads were engaged. When I put this together, I knew it wasn't ideal, but I figured it would be OK--now I see that it definitely wasn't OK!



Here's the familiar bolt hole in the engine:



And you can see that a couple of the threads were removed by my naive torque-setting:



So, it looks like I'll be buying a longer bolt after all! The one March included with the kit is 5 and 1/2" long. To my surprise, I found compatible bolts on McMaster with black oxide finishes in 6" and 6.5" versions.

McMaster part 91251A690's the 6" version:



McMaster part 91251A691's the 6.5" version:



I think the threads in the block are fairly deep, so I'll measure it and order the 6.5" version if it will fit!

Does my idea of installing a longer bolt sounds reasonable?

Aaron, thanks again for your excellent reply!
Robroy

[FreakysFords]

Indeed

Spent some time nit picking your belt alignment and looks good bud

Cleaning the threads out with a tap is something you don't need told, and you've already got the right plan on the bolt. Yeehaw Hoss, Yeehaw.

[robroy]

Good evening Frank, thanks for replying!

Indeed

Spent some time nit picking your belt alignment and looks good bud

Fantastic--thanks for taking a look. I'll have to thank Tom again for handing the correct spacer to me!

Cleaning the threads out with a tap is something you don't need told,

Thanks for reminding me about that! I'll see what I can do to clean them out.

and you've already got the right plan on the bolt. Yeehaw Hoss, Yeehaw.

Excellent, and Yeehaw indeed!

Thanks so much for your great reply Frank!
Robroy

[fuzzier1]

Robroy,

No pulling those threads like that has "junked" the block. You are going to have to start over. New block and everything else. I will be glad to to get all that junk out of your way.




















You are on the right track with the bolt, just chase the threads with a tap as already mentioned.

Did you put the straight edge like before to see how close everything is? I think you are good to go but just as a piece of mind I would see how close compared to the previous with the straight edge (hope that makes sense).

Fuzz

[robroy]

Good evening Fuzz, thanks for replying!

No pulling those threads like that has "junked" the block. You are going to have to start over. New block and everything else. I will be glad to to get all that junk out of your way.

Okay, understood! I see that building a custom automobile's a highly iterative effort that demands patience, so I'm ready to accept this. And thank you for your generous offer to get this core block out of the way--if you'd PM me the address to ship it to I'll have my butler arrange everything. Instead of replacing it with another FE, I'll try a 1988 Toyota V6 engine instead, since it would improve the truck's economy!

You are on the right track with the bolt, just chase the threads with a tap as already mentioned.

Perfect, thanks Fuzz!

Did you put the straight edge like before to see how close everything is? I think you are good to go but just as a piece of mind I would see how close compared to the previous with the straight edge (hope that makes sense).

Indeed I did! And the results were far rosier, although not perfect. Instead of contacting the side of the belt when rotated clock-wise as before, I observed a nice gap at the top that was similar to the gap at the bottom. They weren't identical though--there could have been as much as a 1/16" difference between them.

Based on those results, it looks like the alternator could stand to move back slightly. Thankfully, due to an aforementioned caveat regarding the section of "pipe" that the long, lower alternator bolt passes through, it looks like I'll actually be able to adjust that too! I'll be able to move one of the small shims from behind the alternator case to in front of it, thus moving it back slightly. Then I'll re-do this test!

Fuzz, thank you again for the great idea to use the straight edge like that.

Update: I measured the depth of the threads in the block, and I can thread a bolt in about 7/8". Therefore, using McMaster 91251A691, the 6.5" bolt, would leave me a negative space of about 1/4"!

So it will have to be the six inch McMaster 91251A690. That should give me about 5/8" of thread engagement, which will probably hold up much better! And maybe I'll stick to 25 ft/lbs next time.

Fuzz, thanks for your most excellent reply!
Robroy

[DuckRyder]

I think that your plan for a longer bolt will be fine...

If it comes down to it, there is always a helicoil or time-sert...

[Ranchero50]

Robroy,

I would try to get a nickle cadmium coated or stainless bolt. The black oxide will rust after you run through the first rain storm. Have you considerred calling March and asking if they have a longer bolt? Might be hard to get if they are building the kits off shore but you never know.

Belt tensions a tricky subject. Usually 1/4" deflection per foot of travel by thumb pressure. Too loose and it'll flop, too tight and it'll wear faster.

Jamie

[robroy]

Good day Robert and Jamie, thanks for your excellent replies!

I think that your plan for a longer bolt will be fine...

Great! Thanks for posting and letting me know Robert!

If it comes down to it, there is always a helicoil or time-sert...

OK! Since I removed only 2 or 3 threads, I'm hoping that it will work out without having to do a thread repair. But I'll remember your recommendation for helicoil or time-sert before starting the V6 swap.

I would try to get a nickle cadmium coated or stainless bolt. The black oxide will rust after you run through the first rain storm.

Thanks for pointing this out! I had the impression that the black oxide finishes weren't the finest available, but that's the only finish McMaster has on these bolts.

Also, I ordered some studs with black oxide finishes from McMaster a while back, and the finishes actually seemed quite durable! But I didn't test them by getting them wet, so there could be more to that story.

Have you considerred calling March and asking if they have a longer bolt?

That's a great idea! The thought crossed my mind, yet I figured it would be simpler, and probably faster, to get something from McMaster. Maybe this isn't the case. I may as well wait until Monday morning and call March to see what they say; maybe they do have a variety of lengths of this particular bolt!

Might be hard to get if they are building the kits off shore but you never know.

As far as I know, the March kits are 100% USA made--I'm pretty sure I called them and asked before placing my order, since that's my modus operandi. When I call tomorrow I'll double-check with them on that, since it's a topic of interest to me, and I'm sure others would like to know also!

Belt tensions a tricky subject. Usually 1/4" deflection per foot of travel by thumb pressure. Too loose and it'll flop, too tight and it'll wear faster.

Okay, thanks for letting me know this general rule Jamie! I'll press down on the belt again and see how I'm doing with this in mind.

Robert and Jamie, thanks so much for your generous replies!
Robroy

[robroy]

Good day!

This morning my long-time friend showed me a carpenter's level with one or more built-in lasers; it draws two perpendicular, bright red lines! I'm sure y'all have seen these and used them before.

I got to thinking about it after wards and realized that it might be the perfect tool for checking the alignment of these pulleys. I'll see if I can borrow it for this purpose!

Robroy

[robroy]

Good afternoon,

Thanks to my great friend, I now have my hands on this laser-equipped level.





Even though I'm sure this is a relatively low-power laser, I'm taking tremendous care to avoid shining it anywhere near my eyes.



Here's the cross it draws, on the inside of the garage door.



I used some tie wraps to fasten it to my tripod.



And here it is in action. I'm going to re-try this once it's dark since it might be a lot easier to see clearly then, but you can see that it's indicating decent alignment.




Naturally this tool's designed for carpentry and not building nuclear reactors, so the light polarization isn't complete enough to draw a razor sharp line from a few feet away, and the line's kind of wide. It could still be very useful for judging the alignment between the alternator and crankshaft pulleys though!

I'll experiment further when it gets dark and let y'all know what happens. If anybody has suggestions on how to make better use of this nifty tool, I'd enjoying hearing them very much!

Thanks very much for all the fantastic advice!
Robroy

[Ranchero50]

The laser looks like a new and exciting exercise in frustration

Here's one of the gizmos we use at work:
http://www.accushim.com/productDetail.a ... uctID_E_79

For yours you need to align and hold the laser line on the ridge of the crank pulley perpenducluar to the axis of the two pulleys being compared and then compare it to the water pump pulley. Same deal, crank to alternator, the water pump to alternator from the top. Fun eh?

A straight edge against the back edge of the alt and water pump pulleys will suffice at this point.
Jamie

[DuckRyder]

Here's one of the gizmos we use at work:
http://www.accushim.com/productDetail.a ... uctID_E_79

$1950.00?