Too much air? -- Update

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Supermike
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Re: Too much air?

Post by Supermike »

Found this online and thought it pertained well to this topic and had some good info in it:

Carburetor Facts and Correcting Myths
http://www.fordfe.info/CarbMythFact.html
Air temperature directly effects power. Cool air is denser so a more air (oxygen) actually enters the engine. A 7.2 degree change in air temperature causes a 1% horsepower change. So if the air temperature under your hood is 180 degrees and the air temperature in front of your hood is 90 degrees then by ducting the cooler air to your air cleaner inlet you can give your engine a 90 degree incoming air temperature drop for a 12.5% increase in horsepower (90/7.2 = 12.5).
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Re: Too much air?

Post by mylifeswork »

Hello Gentlemen it's been awhile since I've posted anything. I will not claim to be a Ford Specialist and I only hope to provide some information for thought. Working on vehicles my entire life I will not claim to be an expert either but this topic sounds interesting and like many things the key is to fully understand the systems on our old trucks so modifications will work out as planned.

First i liked many of the comments posted. "BigEd" was right on with much of his information, as were others. We may like them or hate them but engineers designed and built these things to work. There are reasons for thermostatic air clearners, heated spacers, and other devices to make things work. The following is my understanding and professional opinion regarding this thread. We need to consider that carburetion is a crude form of fuel/air mixing and involves compromises. When you start to understand carburetion you realize that carburetors are calibrated from the factory for 70 degree temps at sea level. Once the altitude changes by 2000 feet it should be jetted one size smaller for the lack of air density. If the temperture changes 30 degrees up or down the jet needs to change one number rich or lean again for the change in air density. Of cousre we are not going to pull over when the air temp or altitude changes to change our carburetor jets. Thus carburetors are a compromise since they cannot adjust for varying conditions at will. The main reason for having thermostatic controlled air cleaners is the same reason for running a thermostat in our engines, to maintain a minimum temperature for proper operation. I agree with the 195 degree thermostats. With engine temps hotter we are far more efficient, provide better economy, better performance, and allow our engines to run much cleaner which makes them last longer. Thermostatic Air Cleaners are designed to maintain roughly 115 degree air all the time. The reason for that temperature is to run leaner jets so the engine accomplishes better emissions and fuel economy. When we change the air cleaner to the open element shown in this thread we are now re-engineering the system and thus should change the jets to bigger ones since our air temperature is much colder. I agree with others that some carburetor icing is going on. Since I live in California I don't have much experience with carburetor icing but I did have a truck that experienced this condition. It took roughly 17 miles before it would act up. The customer had to pull the truck over and let it sit for some time and then he could continue. The main point is to make sure from the changes we make on our trucks that we consider the effects of the changes. Of course it would be nice to dyno test and get true air/fuel ratio numbers to determine what jets to use but if we could just place a thermometer or air temp sensor in the open element air cleaner to guage air temps while driving we could change jets accordingly for the changes in parts. This way we have used some sort of re-engineering to bring but the air/fuel ration to where it should be. One other note, Manifolds had exhaust cross-overs ot maintain warmer temps in the intake manifold to better vaporize the fuel mixture. If the heated cross-over has been blocked when the mainfold was installed or the new manifold does not have provisions for heat it will create drivability problems also and require jet changes. In many cases all the engineering to maintain the correct fuel mixture and vaporization is removed from vehicles when modfiying. Individuals will put colder thermostats, open element air cleaners, and block all other forms of heat to the mainfold for the sake of more power. The problem is the fuel system is not modifying for the changes made in air temperture. When we re-engineer we need to consider the entire engine not just parts of it. Just my thoughts.
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Re: Too much air?

Post by eggman918 »

Well spoken :clap:
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Re: Too much air?

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Excellent post, mylifeswork ... I really do appreciate everyone's thoughts and opinions, here. It has generated some great discussion. I look forward to seeing how things improve once I start "putting things back" the way they were intended to be.
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Re: Too much air?

Post by eggman918 »

:yt: I intend to do a 195 thermostat and install heated 1" spacer,if i recall correctly the spacer is on the heater circuit so it is only hot when the heater core is,so it can't hurt :thup:
Steve

The"Filthy Beast"- '68 F-250 Crew Cab 131"W/B 4x4 4BT compounds hx30/Wh1c,5x.012" sac injectors/ZF 5/NP203-205 /3.54 44 trutrack front/60 trutrack rear on 33's. 2nd owner

"Beauty is only skin deep....Ugly is to the bone"
It is more important to understand what you don't know than what you do know,because then you can start to learn..???
"you must deal with the attaboys and the ass chewing s with your head up and looking them in the eyes" T.J.E. aka My Dad
There are only three types of people wolves, sheepdogs, and sheep. What are you?
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Re: Too much air?

Post by BobbyFord »

mylifeswork wrote:Hello Gentlemen it's been awhile since I've posted anything. I will not claim to be a Ford Specialist and I only hope to provide some information for thought. Working on vehicles my entire life I will not claim to be an expert either but this topic sounds interesting and like many things the key is to fully understand the systems on our old trucks so modifications will work out as planned.

First i liked many of the comments posted. "BigEd" was right on with much of his information, as were others. We may like them or hate them but engineers designed and built these things to work. There are reasons for thermostatic air clearners, heated spacers, and other devices to make things work. The following is my understanding and professional opinion regarding this thread. We need to consider that carburetion is a crude form of fuel/air mixing and involves compromises. When you start to understand carburetion you realize that carburetors are calibrated from the factory for 70 degree temps at sea level. Once the altitude changes by 2000 feet it should be jetted one size smaller for the lack of air density. If the temperture changes 30 degrees up or down the jet needs to change one number rich or lean again for the change in air density. Of cousre we are not going to pull over when the air temp or altitude changes to change our carburetor jets. Thus carburetors are a compromise since they cannot adjust for varying conditions at will. The main reason for having thermostatic controlled air cleaners is the same reason for running a thermostat in our engines, to maintain a minimum temperature for proper operation. I agree with the 195 degree thermostats. With engine temps hotter we are far more efficient, provide better economy, better performance, and allow our engines to run much cleaner which makes them last longer. Thermostatic Air Cleaners are designed to maintain roughly 115 degree air all the time. The reason for that temperature is to run leaner jets so the engine accomplishes better emissions and fuel economy. When we change the air cleaner to the open element shown in this thread we are now re-engineering the system and thus should change the jets to bigger ones since our air temperature is much colder. I agree with others that some carburetor icing is going on. Since I live in California I don't have much experience with carburetor icing but I did have a truck that experienced this condition. It took roughly 17 miles before it would act up. The customer had to pull the truck over and let it sit for some time and then he could continue. The main point is to make sure from the changes we make on our trucks that we consider the effects of the changes. Of course it would be nice to dyno test and get true air/fuel ratio numbers to determine what jets to use but if we could just place a thermometer or air temp sensor in the open element air cleaner to guage air temps while driving we could change jets accordingly for the changes in parts. This way we have used some sort of re-engineering to bring but the air/fuel ration to where it should be. One other note, Manifolds had exhaust cross-overs ot maintain warmer temps in the intake manifold to better vaporize the fuel mixture. If the heated cross-over has been blocked when the mainfold was installed or the new manifold does not have provisions for heat it will create drivability problems also and require jet changes. In many cases all the engineering to maintain the correct fuel mixture and vaporization is removed from vehicles when modfiying. Individuals will put colder thermostats, open element air cleaners, and block all other forms of heat to the mainfold for the sake of more power. The problem is the fuel system is not modifying for the changes made in air temperture. When we re-engineer we need to consider the entire engine not just parts of it. Just my thoughts.
I agree but you also have to take into account that the air cleaner and heated carburetor spacer system installed on pre-computer controlled engines was the best "general" system that would work across a broad spectrum of climates and elevations and not necessarily the most optimum system in terms of performance for your particular vehicle's environment.
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Re: Too much air?

Post by mylifeswork »

That's true. That's why carburetion has always been a compromise. You never get exactly the best conditions for the system set-up you have at any given time. That's why the engineering in them was to provide the best overall running conditions for all possible driving conditions. Still not perfect. That's why carburetors eventually disappeared on production vehicles because we couldn't have the crude fuel/air mixing systems work with current EPA and CAFE standards for emissions and fuel economy.
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Re: Too much air?

Post by jzjames »

mlheppl wrote:I'm of the understanding that an engine will generate more HP (I would translate that to running better) if the air coming into the carb is colder. Hence the demand for cold air intake systems on newer vehicles.
That was my initial thought too. It should run better when the temp starts to get colder. Denser fuel/air mixture.
And I was thinking maybe maybe the carburetor needs to be readjusted,
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Re: Too much air?

Post by eggman918 »

I think if it is too cold fuel does not atomize properly , I know that with vintage light aircraft it is a issue.they even have mixture controls to compensate for ALT.and manifold PSI. gauge.....computer F/I solves all this as stated earlier in post.
dident Holley make a metering plate that was adj. externally adjusted ?
Steve

The"Filthy Beast"- '68 F-250 Crew Cab 131"W/B 4x4 4BT compounds hx30/Wh1c,5x.012" sac injectors/ZF 5/NP203-205 /3.54 44 trutrack front/60 trutrack rear on 33's. 2nd owner

"Beauty is only skin deep....Ugly is to the bone"
It is more important to understand what you don't know than what you do know,because then you can start to learn..???
"you must deal with the attaboys and the ass chewing s with your head up and looking them in the eyes" T.J.E. aka My Dad
There are only three types of people wolves, sheepdogs, and sheep. What are you?
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Re: Too much air?

Post by Doug F »

A couple things,

I remember reading that the most power was produced when intake air was 100 degree F, cooler and warmer air made VE go down.

Mike, my truck has it's original oil bath air cleaner with no heat riser like cars and later trucks had, though it does have some crazy "heat riser" thing on the left side manifold that has a flap and heat operated flat wound spring on the outside... Not sure how that all works, but it seemed to run fine when it was –9 a couple weeks ago...
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Re: Too much air?

Post by mylifeswork »

The engine does make more power with a dense air/fuel ratio. I'm sure we all want more power. The problem is when the air gets colder, more dense, the carburetor doesn't compensate with more fuel. So the overall air/fuel ratio is leaner. More air but not more fuel. that's why we went to computerized fuel injection so we could adjust air/fuel mixture at will based of temperature, altitude and any other conditions the computers sensors could monitor. Carburetors for the most part are dumb. They don't know when the engine has a vacuum leak. They don't know when the altitude has changed. They also don't know when the temperature climbs or drops. This was one reason for trying to maintain certain air temps through the air cleaner so the jets and tuning of the carburetor would be compatible for proper fuel mixture regardless of outside air temperatures. Not to rich and not to lean. We still need chokes during cold weather conditions but when the air temperature and engine temperature is where it should be the choke is shut off.

If we want to tune our carburetor everytime we go into winter and back in the summer that's fine. I'm sure most would rather enjoy driving their truck instead of constantly tuning for all the changes we drive them in. Colder air/fuel mixtures are great and make more power. We just have to be able for the carburetor to provide the extra fuel when the colder air is provided. That's why they have chokes on them. When the air temp and engine temp is cold. Usually we need to re-jet a carburetor when the heated air cleaners are removed since the factory calibration is set for the higher air temps provided by the air cleaner system, all for better emissions and fuel economy. Once we remove the heaterd Air cleaner system we need to compensate with more fuel for the colder air. I hope this makes sense. I don't mind sharing any information or answering any questions. I know we all are trying to understand and learn as much as possible about our trucks.
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Re: Too much air?

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mylifeswork wrote:The engine does make more power with a dense air/fuel ratio. I'm sure we all want more power. The problem is when the air gets colder, more dense, the carburetor doesn't compensate with more fuel. So the overall air/fuel ratio is leaner. More air but not more fuel. that's why we went to computerized fuel injection so we could adjust air/fuel mixture at will based of temperature, altitude and any other conditions the computers sensors could monitor. Carburetors for the most part are dumb. They don't know when the engine has a vacuum leak. They don't know when the altitude has changed. They also don't know when the temperature climbs or drops. This was one reason for trying to maintain certain air temps through the air cleaner so the jets and tuning of the carburetor would be compatible for proper fuel mixture regardless of outside air temperatures. Not to rich and not to lean. We still need chokes during cold weather conditions but when the air temperature and engine temperature is where it should be the choke is shut off.

If we want to tune our carburetor everytime we go into winter and back in the summer that's fine. I'm sure most would rather enjoy driving their truck instead of constantly tuning for all the changes we drive them in. Colder air/fuel mixtures are great and make more power. We just have to be able for the carburetor to provide the extra fuel when the colder air is provided. That's why they have chokes on them. When the air temp and engine temp is cold. Usually we need to re-jet a carburetor when the heated air cleaners are removed since the factory calibration is set for the higher air temps provided by the air cleaner system, all for better emissions and fuel economy. Once we remove the heaterd Air cleaner system we need to compensate with more fuel for the colder air. I hope this makes sense. I don't mind sharing any information or answering any questions. I know we all are trying to understand and learn as much as possible about our trucks.
This holds true in most cases, but none of this is the cause of carburetor icing. Keep in mind while reading the following, we're talking cool temperatures and high humidity.

What happens is that the air outside of the engine is at ambient barometric pressure (~29 in Hg at sea level).

The fuel-air mixture that enters the intake manifold is at a highly-reduced pressure. In fact, it's going into a vacuum, about 15-18 in Hg at idle.

(Before you flame me about the 29 in Hg vs 15-18 in Hg, remember that one is pressure and the other vacuum, and both are measured on the same scale, just in opposite directions from zero, so we could have nearly 50 in Hg difference in pressure)

Since air is composed of gases, it reacts the same as any gas when it goes from a high pressure to a low pressure -- it cools. This is the same principle that enables air conditioning units to work.

The coolest point is right where the pressure drop occurs. In this case, it is at the throttle plates in the carburetor. (Ever watched the area around an expansion valve on an air conditioning system? When operating in a high-humidity atmosphere, the line starts frosting up right at the valve and migrates away from the valve.) When this icing occurs, it clogs up the holes around the mixture screws, blocking flow, and causing an over-rich condition. It also causes ice to form on the throttle plates.

Heating either the incoming air or the base of the carburetor prohibits the formation of this ice.
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That's not an oil leak :nono: That's SWEAT from all that HORSEPOWER!! :thup:
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Re: Too much air?

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Had another thought on this, too... I wonder how much "winter gas" comes into play here? In the summer in these parts, they sell "summer blend" gas (http://www.slate.com/id/2098672/). In short, they remove hydrocarbons that are more prone to evaporate in hot weather. I shouldn't have any left in my truck (since I get like 20 miles or less per 1/8 tank), but that might explain some of the early fall issues I had with it being hard starting.

After reading all of these thoughts, I'm of the opinion that -- at least during the months of October to May, I'm best running the factory style air cleaner. I never changed my carb once I installed the open-air filter. I also believe I should change the thermostat, just for good measure, by installing a 195° stat. After those changes, we'll see where I stand...
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Re: Too much air?

Post by Supermike »

Hey folks...

Can anyone provide me more info on the heated spacer? I have a couple of leads... do I just replace the spacer I have now with the heated one? Does anyone have a diagram on how the heater hoses should run w/the heated spacer?

The spacer I have now has a hose that runs from the back of the spacer to the left (passenger side) valve cover.
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Re: Too much air?

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Thats your PCV hose.
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