Why shouldn't I use Nord-Locks under ARP flywheel bolts?

[robroy]

Good day!

Yesterday I installed my new flywheel using ARP bolts (part number 200-2802). Here are the bolts:



After finishing the job, including the clutch, bell housing, and transmission installation, I noticed the slip of paper in the package with the warning not to use washers under the flywheel bolts. I felt extremely smart at that moment.

I used Nord-Locks under the heads of those bolts. I felt that I had to because the bolts were slightly longer than the factory bolts, so there was a risk that they would stick through the crankshaft flange and strike the rear of the engine block. Thanks to My427stang for warning me about this critical check!

Here's the slip of paper with the warning:



Here is a photo of the bolts with Nord-Locks under their heads. Note that due to the reflective surface of the flywheel, it appears that there are two Nord-Locks per bolt, but I used only one.



I carefully torqued the bolts to 80 ft/lbs and used "red" thread lock on the threads.

As you know, removing the Nord-Locks at this stage will require hours of work, including removing the transmission.

Here are my specific questions:

1. Would you recommend removing the Nord-Locks, even at the cost of all that work?
2. Why am I supposed to avoid using washers under those bolts?
3. If I'm supposed to avoid washers because they keep the bolts from sealing, is it OK to leave the washers in if I used thread lock (which should seal OK)?

I'll contact ARP with these questions, but I was wondering if anybody here had any words of wisdom for me in the meanwhile.

Thank you very much!
Robroy

[fordman]

i would follow the manufactures instructions because of possible warranty issues. those look like they stick out quite a ways with the nerd locks on there.

[convincor]

unfortunately you need bolts for a BB chevy.
They are same size but only .875 long
Had the same situation when I build by car.
here's what you need- http://store.summitracing.com/partdetai ... toview=sku

[robroy]

i would follow the manufactures instructions because of possible warranty issues. those look like they stick out quite a ways with the nerd locks on there.

Hey Fordman thanks for your reply! Yeah the bolts do stick out a little because of the Nerd locks (you're the first person other than my father Hugh who I've heard call them that!), but they have perfectly clearance--they don't hit anything (or even come close). The heads of the ARP bolts are actually skinnier than the factory bolts so that helps in this regard.

unfortunately you need bolts for a BB chevy.
They are same size but only .875 long
Had the same situation when I build by car.
here's what you need- http://store.summitracing.com/partdetai ... toview=sku

Convincor, I think you may have provided the exact, and most ideal, solution for my situation. I'm not sure why it didn't occur to me to look at that "underhead length" value before ordering these, but it makes complete sense now that you point it out. Thank you!

This goes to show that generally, the application guide of Summit and other parts stores can't be trusted when it comes to our trucks. I think the FEs are so old fashioned that lots of parts that are made for "Ford V8" engines just don't fit them. I hit this same situation with a Kevlar pilot bushing.

I'll be curious to hear from ARP when they reply to my mail, to see if they agree with your excellent suggestion!

Convincor, what do you think about the special condition for the 330-2801, "Fits engines with Tilton flywheel only?" Also, I notice that the "rear main seal" type for the 330-2801 is "1-piece," while it's "2-piece" for the 200-2802. What do you think of that?

Also, did you decide to use the 330-2801 bolts for FE engines by speaking with ARP or by doing the measuring and choosing yourself?

Thanks very much Fordman and Convincor!
Robroy

[Alvin in AZ]

There was a guy on one of these forums that builds and repairs semi-truck trailers. :)
He had came to the same conclusion I did, washers were just another source of trouble. :/

Look at places where Ford used washers and where they didn't and what type of washer.
Fenders use a Belleville-spring like washer, the split ring "un"-lock washers are used as a
slick surface for the bolts to slide on instead of sliding on the the cast iron parts.

In places that really matter whether the bolt comes loose or not, like flywheels and drum
brake backing plates and parts inside the 9inch differential etc, there ain't no washers!

If it were anywhere besides the flywheel, I would say grind 'em off. ;)

Alvin in AZ (maintained switch point bolts for the railroad)

[robroy]

Alvin, thanks for your great reply. As usual your point is good and makes sense!

I didn't especially want to use those washers on there, but I was itching to get it all put together, and it provided a solution to the bolt length issue. I actually stood there trying to decide what to do for a few minutes.

I figured that the new ARP bolts with the Nord-Locks would be a better option than the factory bolts, since the factory bolts have seen 37 years of duty and weren't extraordinarily superb to begin with (although adequate).

I will probably wind up following Convincor's advice and ordering shorter ARP bolts, then ripping it all apart to install them.

Thanks Alvin!
Robroy

[convincor]

This goes to show that generally, the application guide of Summit and other parts stores can't be trusted when it comes to our trucks. I think the FEs are so old fashioned that lots of parts that are made for "Ford V8" engines just don't fit them. I hit this same situation with a Kevlar pilot bushing.

I'll be curious to hear from ARP when they reply to my mail, to see if they agree with your excellent suggestion!

Convincor, what do you think about the special condition for the 330-2801, "Fits engines with Tilton flywheel only?" Also, I notice that the "rear main seal" type for the 330-2801 is "1-piece," while it's "2-piece" for the 200-2802. What do you think of that?

Also, did you decide to use the 330-2801 bolts for FE engines by speaking with ARP or by doing the measuring and choosing yourself?

Thanks very much Fordman and Convincor!
Robroy

Forget any of the footnotes in there discriptions. Here's a perfect case of "when size matters".
Will be interest what reply ARP has. Mine were bought 4 years ago and had the same problem.
If there the right size, for the same intended purpose, use what fits.
As for calling them....Just because they have a shirt with there name on it doesn't alway's mean they know what there doing.

[robroy]

Hey Convincor, thanks for the quick reply. I see your point about using what fits and not assuming that the person on the other end of the phone is an absolute expert (necessarily).

I'll be curious to hear what they say at any rate. And if they say that my bolts are fine with the Nord-Locks, as is, then I'll just leave it! That will save me hours of work ripping it all apart again.

But based on that slip of paper with their warning, I think they're unlikely to agree with the washers I used.

Thanks again!
Robroy

[fordman]

i think they named there selves wrong . it is too easy to make fun of them like that. even though they do have a good idea. i had to get a shot in on them for fun .

[robroy]

The product would probably be even more appealing to me if their official name were Nerd Lock! I think things are often made more serious than they need to be.

Thanks Fordman!
Robroy

[Alvin in AZ]

Hmmm... you guys figure the flywheel's...
"not going anywhere right away"
"unless he over does it somehow" ??

Depending on what point you're at putting it back together...
I figure it wouldn't hurt anything to drive it like it is.

Don't let your foot slip off the clutch pedal or any dumb stuff like that? ;)

Might find something else you need to take it apart for see?
...you wouldn't otherwise find until you go for a test drive?

Robroy, did you make a pair of these? :)
http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/file12/guidepins.jpg
(made from 6" 7/16-14 grade 5 bolts)
Anybody else have a set? :)

Alvin in AZ

[robroy]

Hey Alvin thanks for your reply.

I haven't installed the engine+transmission combo in the truck yet, so it wouldn't be excessively painful to pull it apart. It would just be a matter of time.

Time and a little patience, since I would need to clean crusty thread lock out of the bolts holes!

I'll let ya'll know what ARP says about the situation.

Thanks again,
Robroy

[robroy]

Robroy, did you make a pair of these?
http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/file12/guidepins.jpg

Hey Alvin those look fantastic! I probably would have enjoyed benefit from those, and if I pull the transmission off again to remove my Nord-Locks I'll prepare some of those bolts in advance. I just didn't have anything like that handy that day.

I guess it's smarter to get those in grade 5 instead of grade 8 since you'll have an easier time grinding the heads off that way.

Thanks for the great idea!

Robroy

[robroy]

GREAT NEWS!

I just called ARP, and the guy explained the rule against washers in more detail. Here are the points I heard:

1. Regular, flat washers are fine, although I shouldn't normally need them since the surface area of the head of these bolts is so high.
2. The type of washer that they're really saying not to use is a "star" lockwasher, as shown in the illustration on their instructions. That's because these "star" washers have sharp, prominent teeth and eat in to the flywheel.
3. The only differences between the 330-2801 and the 200-2802 are the under head lengths and the socket size (the head size).
4. The 330-2801 has a smaller socket/head size than the 200-2802, but you should be able to use the 330-2801 wherever you'd normally use the 220-2802 in this regard at least.
5. The 330-2801 has a shorter under head length, as described by Convincor. And that note about fitting only "Tilton" flywheels is there simply because those flywheels are thinner, so they work with a shorter bolt. No other reason.

I asked him to comment on whether Nord-Locks are "flat enough," since they don't have any sharp "teeth" per se, but he didn't really respond to that. I don't think he knew what a Nord-Lock was. And he didn't sound ready to take the time to open the image I mailed either. He was the type of guy who was ready to answer only "yes or no" questions.

So the results from that call raise my confidence level from 15% to 80%. As compared to those "star" lockwashers, Nord-Locks are very smooth. I can't imagine them eating in to the flywheel much at all.

What do you guys think?

Thanks!
Robroy

[convincor]

I think, if you want it right you know what you need to do.
And that's what I would do. I think the bolt without the washer is going to have greater strength. Which could be more than what you really need. But like I said, if you want it right......