1972 F250 12"x2.5" Bendix rear drum brake rebuild: advice?

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robroy
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Re: 1972 F250 Dana 60 12"x2.5" rear drum brake rebuild: advice?

Post by robroy »

Good evening Frank, thanks for your superb reply!
FreakysFords wrote:It's supposed to be that way, The front shoe takes more loading and abuse, so needs to be thicker for even wear.
That's great news! Thanks for letting me know.
FreakysFords wrote:Love the wheel cylinder detail btw!
Thanks! Although I'm trying my best to avoid doing a full cosmetic restoration, those new wheel cylinders were already pristine, bare metal. I figured I ought to at least put some paint on them!
FreakysFords wrote:Any news on the drum's survival?
None yet! They're still sitting out in the dark, cold garage awaiting their fate. I plan to take them somewhere tomorrow for inspection!

By the way, I realize that I'm lacking the experience to make a confident judgment on the condition of the wheel bearings and races. Perhaps the answers to these questions could increase my confidence:
  1. If any of the wheel bearings don't feel completely new, would it be prudent to replace them now? Or is it normal for one or more of them to feel slightly imperfect?
  2. To properly judge the condition of wheel bearings and races, must they be completely free of grease and oil? (Naturally this is a mute point if they're far gone, which none of mine seem to be.)
  3. If wheel bearings typically out-last brake jobs, by what factor do they outlast them? 2-to-1? Or is their typical longevity still greater?
  4. Do wheel bearings normally degrade in a linear fashion over time, or is their degradation more often catastrophic (or at least rapid once a critical point is reached)?
  5. Are bearings and races tested simply by pressing them together by hand (with my fingers sticking through the center like a chicken-head-puppet) and rotating the bearing? What other methods should I be aware of?
EDIT: I just realized that I can simply take the bearings along with the drums and get the machinist's opinion on them! Yet I'm still curious to know more about making the best judgment on their condition.

Frank, thanks again for your fast and helpful reply!
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Re: 1972 F250 Dana 60 12"x2.5" rear drum brake rebuild: advice?

Post by FreakysFords »

robroy wrote: By the way, I realize that I'm lacking the experience to make a confident judgment on the condition of the wheel bearings and races. Perhaps the answers to these questions could increase my confidence:
  1. If any of the wheel bearings don't feel completely new, would it be prudent to replace them now? Or is it normal for one or more of them to feel slightly imperfect?
  2. To properly judge the condition of wheel bearings and races, must they be completely free of grease and oil? (Naturally this is a mute point if they're far gone, which none of mine seem to be.)
  3. If wheel bearings typically out-last brake jobs, by what factor do they outlast them? 2-to-1? Or is their typical longevity still greater?
  4. Do wheel bearings normally degrade in a linear fashion over time, or is their degradation more often catastrophic (or at least rapid once a critical point is reached)?
  5. Are bearings and races tested simply by pressing them together by hand (with my fingers sticking through the center like a chicken-head-puppet) and rotating the bearing? What other methods should I be aware of?
  1. If there's any roller degradation, replace.
  2. You really want the as close to that point as possible (unless you see defects without such cleaning, then replace)
  3. This is a seriously tough one. Materials and workmanship, the last owner's maintenance, original installer's care toward being right, contaminates in fluid (sorta specific to this type of axle) and such. Typically, unless I installed the last set myself, I replace them at the brake job......... unless everything seems perfect.
  4. Get them clean enough to see each individual roller. If you see pitting, tracing, galling, dark or light spots, or flat spots, then replace. Now look at the cage (the part that holds the rollers together), very minor bends are common, but kinks or signs that a roller had tried to "roll over" the cage partition, replace.
NOW put the clean assembly together and see if she rolls cleanly. Noise is to be expected on dry bearings, not jumping or rough spots. If it passes all the above, you can reuse them.
OH forgot. The same visual checks go for the races (cups).

EDIT: lol just saw your edit. They might very well be willing to go over this with you for future reference.

Frank
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Re: 1972 F250 Dana 60 12"x2.5" rear drum brake rebuild: advice?

Post by robroy »

Good evening Frank, thanks for your super generous reply!

I did notice dark and light spots on the races, although they felt perfectly smooth! The spots were visually pronounced enough for me to notice them without specifically looking out for that condition!

I'll look at the bearings and races very closely tomorrow and run through your excellent check-list, and post back (with some good photos)! I'll also report on the machinist's opinion.

Thanks again Frank!
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Re: 1972 F250 Dana 60 12"x2.5" rear drum brake rebuild: advice?

Post by speed bump »

Why not just pull the 4 bolts that hold the backing plates on, give them a quick thorough scrub and spray some paint on? It seems like your not going to be putting it together tonight so might as well spend the half hours time so it doesn't bother you down the road.
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Re: 1972 F250 Dana 60 12"x2.5" rear drum brake rebuild: advice?

Post by 70_F100 »

speed bump wrote:Why not just pull the 4 bolts that hold the backing plates on, give them a quick thorough scrub and spray some paint on? It seems like your not going to be putting it together tonight so might as well spend the half hours time so it doesn't bother you down the road.
:yt: Good point!!

Just hit them with a wire brush and some brake cleaner to get them clean, then wipe them down with some lacquer thinner or acetone and spray them.

You could do that without even pulling the backing plates. Cover up the axle tubes with some newspaper or shop rags, and spray away!!!

Not a "full cosmetic" restoration, but it would help kill any rust that's already there, and prevent any new rust from forming on the backing plates. :thup:
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Re: 1972 F250 Dana 60 12"x2.5" rear drum brake rebuild: advice?

Post by robroy »

Good afternoon Speed Bump and 70_F100, thanks for your excellent replies!
speed bump wrote:Why not just pull the 4 bolts that hold the backing plates on, give them a quick thorough scrub and spray some paint on? It seems like your not going to be putting it together tonight so might as well spend the half hours time so it doesn't bother you down the road.
You're probably right about this! I'll consider doing it. The backing plates sure are easy to access right now. And if both the backing plates and parking brake levers were refinished, it would be a pristine brake rebuild!
70_F100 wrote: :yt: Good point!!

Just hit them with a wire brush and some brake cleaner to get them clean, then wipe them down with some lacquer thinner or acetone and spray them.
Perhaps I'll do this! At least I'd be able to see their exteriors when the truck's put together, so the work wouldn't be completely hidden I suppose.
70_F100 wrote:You could do that without even pulling the backing plates. Cover up the axle tubes with some newspaper or shop rags, and spray away!!!
True! That might be better than nothing. Yet if I'm going to paint them, I'll feel compelled to remove them and try to do a nice job.
70_F100 wrote:Not a "full cosmetic" restoration, but it would help kill any rust that's already there, and prevent any new rust from forming on the backing plates. :thup:
True!

The Spring weather has been amazing here lately! In this evening photo you can see the Salinas Valley with ocean fog in the distance. The air is absolutely superb.

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Here's the passenger's side cylinder ready for paint. I cleaned its exterior with Eastwood's PRE just like the other one.

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Since I had no metal or ceramic container that I was ready to devote to this purpose, I used brake cleaner to flush most of the grease and oil from the wheel bearings.

Here's the inside surface of one of them; I suppose this surface isn't critical since it doesn't move. Note that y'all can click on any of these photos to see much larger, higher definition editions.

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Here's the worst of the races. You can clearly see its light and dark patches!

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And here I'm trying out the various bearings. None felt perfect, although one felt much better than the three others. So although I'm far from being an experienced judge of their condition, this variance itself was telling; if one felt better than the rest, the rest probably weren't in showroom condition.

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On several of the bearings you could see what may have been uneven wear on the rollers.

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Others had lots of fine lines in the roller surfaces, but didn't look overtly objectionable.

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As planned, I bundled up the bearings and drums to take them for inspection! I decided to visit Dan at Elmer's for that.

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An hour ago Dan called and said that he was able to turn them! He said that they were about 0.050" oversize to begin with, and in three passes on his machine, he removed about 0.015" more. He remarked that even though they're supposed to be OK for 0.090", this might be the last time they'll be able to turn them. (I'll ask him for more details on this when I go to pick them up.)

Dan also mentioned that because I hadn't taken care to keep the bearings matched up with their races, if I put them together as-is with the bearings and races mis-matched, it would probably cause accelerated wear. Whoops! So he located a set of USA-made Timken bearings and races and said he'd have the races installed by 5PM today.

Speed Bump and 70_F100, thanks for your superb replies!
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Re: 1972 F250 Dana 60 12"x2.5" rear drum brake rebuild: advice?

Post by Wes »

good to hear the drums were serviceable. Yes keep used bearings and races matched together. the max diameter spec is confusing, common misconception is the drum/rotors may be refinished to the published max dia, this is not so. The drums/rotors must be dis guarded at the max dia. So the machinist must consider wear when measuring for the last refinish. Most of the domestic light trucks publish .020" wear, so 12.070 would be the max refinish size. This brake job when done will be trouble free for years once it's done.
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Re: 1972 F250 Dana 60 12"x2.5" rear drum brake rebuild: advice?

Post by FreakysFords »

:yt:

Glad you were able to save them bud! More fuel money!!! :D

Again, I don't recall if you've already covered this or not.... What did the axle lube look like? Something to think about is the possibility of changing it now while the new bearings aren't yet installed. It's not that big a job (IF IT"S NEEDED). :lol: Then there is my overkill method as well :) Unless there's sludge or excessive metallic contamination though, it's almost a drain and refill.

Regardless, Congrats on the save!

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Re: 1972 F250 Dana 60 12"x2.5" rear drum brake rebuild: advice?

Post by robroy »

Good evening Wes and Frank, thanks for your quality replies!
Wes wrote:good to hear the drums were serviceable.
Indeed; simplicity's great when it's available.
Wes wrote:Yes keep used bearings and races matched together.
Understood! I learned my lesson and will remember this for next time.
Wes wrote:the max diameter spec is confusing, common misconception is the drum/rotors may be refinished to the published max dia, this is not so. The drums/rotors must be dis guarded at the max dia. So the machinist must consider wear when measuring for the last refinish. Most of the domestic light trucks publish .020" wear, so 12.070 would be the max refinish size.
That's extremely interesting Wes, thanks for explaining it! That also means that one of my drums might have been turned a little too much (more on that later in the post).
Wes wrote:This brake job when done will be trouble free for years once it's done.
Fantastic--that's what I have in mind. Thanks for the encouraging words Wes!
FreakysFords wrote: :yt:

Glad you were able to save them bud! More fuel money!!! :D
Thanks! I think The Yellow Jacket will accept the extra money and say, "Gulp!"
FreakysFords wrote:Again, I don't recall if you've already covered this or not.... What did the axle lube look like?
That's a point that I have not covered yet! Since that unknown, probably ancient lube is going to get on these new bearings, I think changing it is a very good idea.
FreakysFords wrote:Something to think about is the possibility of changing it now while the new bearings aren't yet installed.
I think that's a great idea!
FreakysFords wrote:It's not that big a job (IF IT"S NEEDED). :lol: Then there is my overkill method as well :) Unless there's sludge or excessive metallic contamination though, it's almost a drain and refill.
I like the sound of drain and refill! I'll have to consult the shop manual to learn the ABCs of changing it.
FreakysFords wrote:Regardless, Congrats on the save!
Thanks Frank!

I already went to meet Dan and grab the drums and bearings! Dan seemed experienced and had a great attitude, and the drums look beautiful now!

I heard from Dan that the drums are now 0.070" and 0.078" over-size. He even took his caliper out in to the parking lot after I'd loaded them up and re-measured it so I could see how that's done. Interesting!

I'm not certain about this, but I suspect that the 0.078" over-size drum might be the passenger-side drum, which had that really deep groove in it (which is now gone).

Dan installed USA-made, Timken 104911 races. He also returned the old races to me, which by chance were also Timken 104911s!

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Here's the new drum surface. It looks absolutely perfect to me! What a difference. It now seems comical to me that I wasn't sure whether I should turn them or not.

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Here are the old Timken 104911 races.

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Here are the new Timken 104949 bearings.

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And one more photo of a new Timken 104949.

Question:
  • Since one of these drums is now 0.078" over-size, and Wes mentioned that it's normal to expect a wear amount of 0.020", is there a genuine cause for concern here? After all, 0.078" plus 0.020" is 0.098", which exceeds the maximum.
Wes and Frank, thanks very much for your excellent guidance!
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Re: 1972 F250 Dana 60 12"x2.5" rear drum brake rebuild: advice?

Post by robroy »

Good evening!

I scanned this and almost forgot to post it! Here's the receipt from Elmer's:

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Thanks for the outstanding guidance!
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Re: 1972 F250 Dana 60 12"x2.5" rear drum brake rebuild: advice?

Post by FreakysFords »

You're still in the clear. It's not "ideal" but it is absolutely fine. Those old drums wear quite well.

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Re: 1972 F250 Dana 60 12"x2.5" rear drum brake rebuild: advice?

Post by robroy »

Good evening Frank, thanks for your fast reply!
FreakysFords wrote:You're still in the clear. It's not "ideal" but it is absolutely fine. Those old drums wear quite well.
Okay, excellent! I'll plan on replacing them instead of trying to have them turned next time, then.

When I heard that they'd been turned to different amounts (one 0.070", one 0.078" over), I remembered what you wrote about liking to keep them even with one another, so that they heat up and cool off at the same rate on both sides. Oh well! Hopefully that effect is very subtle.

Thanks Frank!
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Re: 1972 F250 Dana 60 12"x2.5" rear drum brake rebuild: advice?

Post by robroy »

Good evening!

This afternoon I ventured down to town to seek out replacement axle retention and wheel cylinder bolts! Kasie came along for part of the journey so there are extra photos this time.

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I decided to try Salinas Valley Ford first, since they're nearest to home.

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There wasn't a clear entrance to their parts department, but as evidenced by the slouch and knuckles dragging on the pavement, guys like myself can usually smell their way to it (left). Once inside the building, Kasie took a photo of the parts area from the lobby (right).

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Here I'm holding up the bolt, mentioning that it's an axle retaining bolt from a Dana 60 in a 1972 F250 (left). After consulting briefly with his comrades, the gentleman replied, with reference to his computer (I think), "It only goes back to 1980." My response to that is on the right.

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Here's a better axle retaining bolt photo than the one I posted before:

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I asked the gentleman if he had access to any books, or micro-film viewers that would show parts information for a 1972 vehicle, and he retreated to the back area to consult with the boss. After a few moments I heard some big laughs, followed by, "He wants WHAT!?"

Oh well! So much for the Ford dealer (this one at least).

Next, I tried to locate some new 5/16-18 x 1/2" wheel cylinder bolts. OSH didn't have any that short, so I visited some industrial supply businesses. I figured I'd also ask them about the 7/16-14 x 1 and 3/8" axle retaining bolts.

I tried Green Valley Industrial Supply first, and they weren't able to help with either bolt.

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Next I tried Applied Industrial Technologies (left), and they had nothing on the shelf. Finally, I tried Fastenal (right), and they had the 5/16-18 x 1/2" wheel cylinder bolts at least!

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Justin at Fastenal was the most helpful guy out of everybody I talked to today. He found this sack of 100 5/16-18 x 1/2", grade eight bolts for me; they're made in Canada. The sack was $19.28 with tax, which is a little less than the McMaster-Carr price (once shipping's added in).

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Justin mentioned that they could order sixteen grade eight, 7/16-14 x 1 and 3/8" bolts for me for $7.80 plus shipping, which would probably amount to $15.00, and that it would take 1-2 weeks to receive them! Plus, they would most likely not have the 3/8" shoulders that the OEM bolts have.

And here's the drive home, after all that wild excitement.

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Today's Questions:
  • It seems that I'm having a little trouble finding new axle retaining bolts. Do y'all have any more ideas of where to look for these?
  • Do y'all think the shoulders on the bolts are important enough for me to continue my search, or shall I simply order the shoulder-less variety from Fastenal?
  • Which would be better: re-using the old shouldered bolts, or using new shoulder-less bolts?
Thanks very much for all the super generous guidance!
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Re: 1972 F250 Dana 60 12"x2.5" rear drum brake rebuild: advice?

Post by 69FLATBED »

Man robroy, This is such a detailed thread it will be helpful for people for years to come. I hope when you get to re-installing the self adjusters you do it in as much detail as the rest of this thread, because mine are completely gone and i'm in the process of doing my brakes on my F350 also. Keep up the good work and this very detailed thread going. :thup:
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Re: 1972 F250 Dana 60 12"x2.5" rear drum brake rebuild: advice?

Post by robroy »

Good evening 69Flatbed, thanks for your excellent reply!
69FLATBED wrote:Man robroy, This is such a detailed thread it will be helpful for people for years to come.
Thanks for appreciating it 69Flatbed, although my only contribution to it has been an abundance of organized ignorance--it's the experienced guys answering the questions who deserve the credit!
69FLATBED wrote:I hope when you get to re-installing the self adjusters you do it in as much detail as the rest of this thread, because mine are completely gone and i'm in the process of doing my brakes on my F350 also.
Thanks for letting me know! I'll pay extra close attention to the self-adjusters when I get to that stage. I already know that I'll probably be replacing some of the self-adjusting hardware on the passenger side, so you'll undoubtedly see some action here on that topic!
69FLATBED wrote:Keep up the good work and this very detailed thread going. :thup:
That I will do, and thank you!

Today's update:

Here are the pretty new bolts in the wheel cylinder. I'm thinking of re-using the star-type lockwashers from the OEM bolts, since I don't have any kind of lockwasher as thin as these, and I don't want to reduce the thread engagement from OEM specs. I wasn't able to find USA-made star-type lockwashers of this variety.

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These four parts came with the UP-316R brake shoes. I can see that the posts belong to part of the self-adjusting hardware, yet I'm not yet sure where the horse shoes go!

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I began a minute comparison between the old shoes and the new UP-316R shoes, and made some curious discoveries in the following order.

I remembered reading Frank's advice about the front shoes being the ones with the thicker linings, yet it appeared that only the shoes with the thick linings had the necessary holes to mount the self-adjusting hardware! And the way the parts were installed on #50, all the self-adjusting hardware was found on the secondary (rear) shoes.

Here are the old shoes (left) and the new shoes (right). The new shoe with the thin lining's on the far right, yet it doesn't appear to have the proper holes to support parts A and B, while the new shoe with the thick lining does.

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Here are close-up photos of the two self-adjusting parts installed on the driver's side, secondary (rear) shoe.

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Moments later, I had a profound cognitive breakthrough! I realized that the shoes are stamped, indicating their side (right/left) and position (primary/secondary)! That said, I'm aware that these shoes have probably been re-conditioned with new linings a number of times, so the information stamped on them may not be accurate (in theory).

Here are the left-hand primary and secondary shoe stamps:

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Thus it seems that the thick-lined shoes must be installed in the secondary/rear positions. Not only are they the shoes with the holes to support the self-adjusting hardware, but they're stamped with "SEC."

Frank, based on this update, do you still believe that the thick-lined shoes should go in the primary/front positions? Perhaps these shoes are simply different in this way from most drum brake shoes (for other applications)?

69Flatbed, thanks again for your great reply!
Robroy
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