ZF 5 speed questions windsor pattern

Clutch, transmission, rear axle

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fast65
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ZF 5 speed questions windsor pattern

Postby fast65 » Sun Apr 26, 2009 9:26 pm

I have located a zf- 5 speed out of an 89 f250 2wd, Its out of truck already and has tag number 1307-050-050

For my future f100 with a 351w, I would like to use this transmission.
Some questions:
what ratios are in the trans? (I already did a search online with no results)
What breaks, and other than trying it in a truck, are there any other simple checks?
As I have built a few toploaders, t-5s, and c4's I am not completely ignorant. what should the thrust be in this trans?
Any ways to determine potential problems without dissasembly?

The reason the ratios are important, Is I do not want a granny gear. I will change to rear gears if need be to 3.00, 2,75, or even 2.50 depending on the tire size. After having the last 3 trucks with OD, I really do not want a truck with out it.


Any experiences are welcome.

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Re: ZF 5 speed questions windsor pattern

Postby craftsman » Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:35 am


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Re: ZF 5 speed questions windsor pattern

Postby averagef250 » Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:42 pm

The gas ZF's are all wide ratio granny units. There is no clearance in a ZF. ZF's have .0015 to .003" preload on the main and counter shafts. The only issue the early ZF S5-42's have is stripping the synchro teeth off reverse gear and slider. This isn't a tranny issue it's more related to people driving a truck with worn out clutch linkage that doesn't fully disengage the clutch.

Also, unless you have a very fancy puller selection or the special rotunda tool you won't get the input bearing race out of the case in one piece to check or change the preload. In a desperate situation you can use NV4500 shims under the rear mainshaft bearing race, but you will be messing with shift fork alignment.
1970 F-250 4x4 original Willock swivel frame chassis '93 5.9 Cummins/Getrag/NP205/HP60/D70

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Re: ZF 5 speed questions windsor pattern

Postby averagef250 » Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:00 pm

The gas ZF's do not have a bearing retainer. The input bearing is a blind press into the forward case half. The diesel versions have a removable input snout that can be used in a pinch to press the input race out, but it can distort the snout. To remove the gas ZF or six speed input race you either have to weld it's ID up and shrink it out or use the Rotunda tool that expands knife edged jaws behind the bearing race to move it out and grasp it.

ZF's are very tight transmissions. They are similiar to working on an aisin built manual in thier assembly. To work on one it's best to be really good with using torch heat and having an induction bearing heater to reassemble it. The ZF six speeds are assembled with the bearings and shaft collars being an interferance fit even with the parts at 450 degrees.
1970 F-250 4x4 original Willock swivel frame chassis '93 5.9 Cummins/Getrag/NP205/HP60/D70

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Re: ZF 5 speed questions windsor pattern

Postby averagef250 » Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:15 pm

The T-bird M5R2's have a different 5th gear ratio. From memory it's .76 instead of .8 in the trucks. The bird ones are great trannies (twice the strength of a T-5) but you cannot get lined synchros for them anymore and hard parts are hard to find if you damage something.
1970 F-250 4x4 original Willock swivel frame chassis '93 5.9 Cummins/Getrag/NP205/HP60/D70

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Re: ZF 5 speed questions windsor pattern

Postby fast65 » Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:44 pm

dustin,

Looks like you sold me on the M5R2 transmission.

For putting it into a 70 F100 302, What should I grab from a the donor truck besides transmission?

-block plate
-clutch& FW
-hydraulic lines including master cylinder
-wiring plug for reverse lights
-shifter and boot
-bolts
-rear trans mount.

anything else?

I just have to choose between two f150 trucks, and neither has enough left for a mileage estimate. Any other pointers to check before I buy?

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Re: ZF 5 speed questions windsor pattern

Postby Alvin in AZ » Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:28 am

fast65 wrote:What should I grab from a the donor truck besides transmission?
-block plate
-clutch& FW
-hydraulic lines including master cylinder
-wiring plug for reverse lights
-shifter and boot
-bolts
-rear trans mount.

I can't think of anything else. :)
In my case I needed the pedal assembly too.
What are you planning on that? :)

The rear mount and ZF cross member I believe I can reuse for the Bronco.
I'm thinking I can flip it around front for back and drill new holes in it to line
up the rubber mount and some new holes in the Bronco's frame too. LOL :)

Just realized tonight I'm ready to haul off my '90 F250 parts truck. :)
I've got everything I need out of it. :)

Neighbors are gonna be sad to see it off its blocks and out of here, but you
know... it just can't be helped, they'll just have to get over it.

Alvin in AZ

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Re: ZF 5 speed questions windsor pattern

Postby fireguywtc » Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:55 am

Dustin, do the M5R2 trannies have a granny low? I am looking to do a 5spd swap in my project. I want an OD manual but want to keep the granny low. So ideally I looking for something like a ZF-5 so I will have a granny 1st, four foward gears with and OD. I don't care much what model of trans it is as long as its dependable and can hold up to the 3/4 ton uses. thanks
Bill
1967 F-250 LWB 2WD 352 V8, 4spd manual, true duals, 122k original miles (currently being restored)
1970 F-250 4x4 highboy ranger 390 V8, 4spd
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Re: ZF 5 speed questions windsor pattern

Postby averagef250 » Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:53 am

M5R2 is close ratio only. They are meant for tall rear gears and have nice gear splits getting progressively tighter as you go up. The gas ZF ratios and NV4500 ratios are horrible IMO, but to each there own. I feel the gas ratios are fine behind a 460 in a lighter truck, but make a small block or 300 lose a bunch of thier potential. I had a 91 351wonder F250 4x4 shop truck with the ZF for a few months. I've never experienced a truck that had so much going for it and could do so little work. That truck was worthless with any weight behind it. Sad to say it, but I've had Chevies that pulled better than that truck. I junked that truck when the body started falling apart and swapped the ZF into my '71. A week later I pulled the ZF out and put the M5R2 back in. I knew the ratios would be poorer, but was planning to sell the truck and figured the ZF would add more value. What I didn't realize was going to the ZF's poor ratios was the same as losing 50HP in a turbodiesel. It made it unbearable to drive.

With the M5R2 in my '71 behind 239 cubic inches of 4 banger diesel with 4.10 gears and 35" rubber I can easily tow 10K behind the truck (5900 by itself) and keep up with traffic just peachy. No granny needed. If I needed lower I always have low range in the t-case. I've never needed low range to get anything moving, even sitting over 20K truck and trailer. The only time I've used 4 lo in this truck is creeping through places I didn't need to take a decent shape old truck but did anyway.
1970 F-250 4x4 original Willock swivel frame chassis '93 5.9 Cummins/Getrag/NP205/HP60/D70

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Re: ZF 5 speed questions windsor pattern

Postby Alvin in AZ » Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:06 pm

Wow, extra cool post, Dustin. :)

Not sure what that information means to Firebug but it hit home for me. :)
All the "bad" things you said about the ZF I feel as tho won't apply to me. LOL :)
It's cool to hear the thinking and experience tho! :)

I'm planning to stroke the 351W out to 408 with short rods and run 3L55 axle
with 29 to 31.5" tires. I don't tow much, used to, it was dune buggies and
other junky old VWs and lately all the towing has been a broke down Bronco
and Ford parts trucks. LOL :) The '75 parts truck I might turn into a pickup
bed trailer someday tho.

Here's a weird one for you...
More than anything else, -not shifting- to the upper left to start from a stop
each time is very important to me. I want my Bronco to have the same shift
pattern as my '75 F150 with the T18. I -don't- want it to have a shift pattern
like an old VW bug. :/
...told you it was weird. ;)

......... 1st.. 2nd. 3rd. 4th.. 5th
NP435. 6.69 3.34 1.79 1.00
..T-18. 6.32 3.09 1.69 1.00
..ZF... 5.72 2.94 1.61 1.00 0.76
.M5R2. 3.75 2.32 1.43 1.00 0.75

http://www.vibratesoftware.com/html_hel ... tm#5%20Man
(they've got "gasoline" and "diesel" backwards in the 5 speed section)

Alvin in AZ
ps- When I tow a full stock trailer, it's with someone else's truck. :)
pps- ...and I ain't in a hurry! ;)

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Re: ZF 5 speed questions windsor pattern

Postby averagef250 » Sat Jul 04, 2009 12:20 pm

Your M5R2 ratios are inaccurate.

M5R2-
3.9
2.25
1.50
1
.8
The thing I really like about the M5 is the .8 overdrive and deep first. You can run extra tall rear gears and still have an easy start as well as a close 4-5 shift.

I can relate to wanting the shift pattern similarity. Of the 3 trucks I have and drive currently, two are close ratio ZF's and one is M5R2. They all have similiar ratios and the same shift pattern which makes it easier to switch between them.
1970 F-250 4x4 original Willock swivel frame chassis '93 5.9 Cummins/Getrag/NP205/HP60/D70

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Re: ZF 5 speed questions windsor pattern

Postby Alvin in AZ » Sat Jul 04, 2009 1:37 pm

I had a question asking if the one I posted was the one you liked, but edited it out. :/
Here it is from the website...
http://www.vibratesoftware.com/html_hel ... tm#5%20Man
M5OD-R2 3.91 2.24 1.49 1.00 0.80

Alvin in AZ

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Re: ZF 5 speed questions windsor pattern

Postby averagef250 » Sat Jul 04, 2009 3:13 pm

I think the model designations for the transmissions they are listing are way off. The M5OD R-1 and M5OD-R2 are correct (everyone who is familiar with these shortens them to M5R1 or M5R2 respectively, even most newer factory ford literature). The "M" in model name designates it as Mazda built. None of the other transmissions designated as having a model starting with "M" are actually Mazda built.

Sounds like a case of the internet distorting things a bit. I especially like the mixup of close and wide ratio ZF 5 speeds and how they designate them as being Mazda built.
1970 F-250 4x4 original Willock swivel frame chassis '93 5.9 Cummins/Getrag/NP205/HP60/D70

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Re: ZF 5 speed questions windsor pattern

Postby averagef250 » Sat Jul 04, 2009 3:14 pm

Also, there is a .75 OD M5R2, it's the T-bird SC version and is rather different externally from the pickup version.
1970 F-250 4x4 original Willock swivel frame chassis '93 5.9 Cummins/Getrag/NP205/HP60/D70

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Re: ZF 5 speed questions windsor pattern

Postby fast65 » Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:56 pm

Dustin.

Did you use the higher bolt on tunnel cover for your M5R2 swap? did you use the large boot that would have been on the OEM floor shift that they sell in repo?


How about the hydro clutch: did you remake the arm that connects to the MC piston to orient it properly to push?
Thanks
Paul


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